# A Mild Pitting of The Tao's Revenge **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 21, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275 "2009-03-21T17:57:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/41 "2009-03-23T04:10:17Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > So I read it backwards - you couldn’t figure it out? When you list a group of people that don’t meet the criteria I was asking about, and also include the word “etc.”, how am I supposed to discern who did meet the criteria? What about men whose wives work while they sit at home, having no job prospects? Are they making a legal living? Those who decide that they can actually come out ahead by collecting welfare and food stamps and staying home with their kids, versus working for minimum wage while paying for child care? Are they making a legal living? Basically, are the only people making a legal living those who are employed, or are there other groups, and if so, how do you define those other groups? > [@](#): > > Sure. In that case, let’s arrest those people, and let them be covered under a prison medical program, while the rest of us have UHC. Cool? > [@](#): > > Below it somewhat. Or a lot compared to most folks. Earlier in this thread you mentioned that it wasn’t all that easy to live on 100K in your area. How then do you manage to live so far below your means? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/42 "2009-03-23T04:30:45Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I’m sure they would. However, that doesn’t change the fact that the push is for there to be one “insurance policy”, covering everyone in the US, run by the federal government. Which would be better, economically, socially, and morally then we have now. > [@](#): > > which tends to lower the motivation. Yes cause no one could ever be motivated when they’ve got government cheese. > [@](#): > > It is neither right nor wrong. No one should be expecting to make a living picking up dog poop or handing food thru a drive-thru window, therefore they shouldn’t be expecting someone else to subsidize their insurance. So when everyone follows your whining about taxes, while making $100,000, greedy self ways and gets different jobs how do you think those jobs will get done? You think a magic hand is just going to come out of nowhere and do them? > [@](#): > > I can only hope it affects their reproductive health, tho it doesn’t seem to based on the number of children born every year in third world countries. As for the rest of that, see above. ITT: some wanker making $100,000 wishes the poor to be barren, miscarry, and have kids with developmental birth defects, and higher mortality rates. Or do you not know why reproductive health is about more then getting knocked up? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/43 "2009-03-23T04:35:23Z")
Oh goody, yet another thread in which curlcoat gets to spread her particularly delightful stereotypes of the 1 in 6 Americans without insurance coverage as a bunch of slackers, idiots, spendthrifts, welfare cheats, thieves, morons or some combination of all of the above. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/44 "2009-03-23T05:06:37Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ideally, a few people would say “Yeah, **The Tao’s Revenge** got your argument wrong” and then the thread would fade away. > But given my unpopularity, that’s unlikely to happen. Ok, if that is ideally what you want your pitting to develop into, then I will throw my hat in to agree with you. He got your argument wrong. I actually feel it is really good to point these things out when it happens because this kind of thing ruins good conversations on these boards (with all due respect to Tao, whom I don’t think meant to misunderstand). I have been in the situation where I felt someone did purposefully misinterpret my argument and that is the single time on this board that I ever made a mental note, “never converse with this disengenuous fool ever again” and that poster plummeted to less than zero in the respect I had for her. I have had posters hurt my cyber-feelings, break my lil’ internet heart and annoy me to frazzles, but the only time I ever wrote a poster off to the point of completely dismissing them is when she purposefully misinterpreted my argument. So yeah, I think it is actually good for the board when we point these kinds of things out, so I’m gonna repeat, I think Tao got it wrong this time. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/45 "2009-03-23T06:57:03Z")
I’ll just assume that I’m not getting an answer to my question. I see stupidity is as unassailable as ever. If only there was some cheap psychiatric help available… ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/46 "2009-03-23T13:00:21Z")
Ah, yes, **curlcoat**. The one [who has collected disability](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10650798&postcount=206) and unemployment, but somehow others shouldn’t get insurance. I’m not sure why she should be able to collect disability for not working but others can’t get insurance. I’m sure it’s because she’s different and “appreciates” it more. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/47 "2009-03-23T13:27:22Z")
I’m glad you started this thread, because now I don’t have to bother starting one to point out what a complete freaking idiot you are. **brazil84** : “We have a big underclass.” **Me** : “Compared to who?” **B:** “Compared to countries with UHC.” **M:** “Cite?” **B:** “Our murder rate is higher.” **M:** “You think murder rate is the best measure of the size of an underclass?” **B:** “Of course! Don’t you?” **M:** “Well, I might go with something… you know… relevant. Like the number of people living under the poverty line.” **B:** “Well, they don’t measure that the same way everywhere.” **M:** “They don’t count murders the same way everywhere either. The poverty rate is at least somewhat germane to the conversation.” **B:** “No it isn’t. The murder rate is a much more accurate predictor of underclass size.” **M:** “Well, yes, if you define underclass as ‘people who murder people.’” ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/48 "2009-03-23T14:17:35Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Not irrelevant. Big difference between one government trying to run a program to cover billions of folks, and a bunch of governments being willing to recognize each others programs. Oh, for fuck’s sake. Billions? How many “billions” live in the US? As **The Tao’s Revenge** noted above, this is really an argument over implementation details, not the merits of UHC itself. Also, as I noted, Germany alone has 80 million people. Japan has 130 million. But somehow 300 million is an insurmountable number? Even though they are poor countries, India and China, who indeed do have “billions” to look after, somehow manage to pull it off. > [@](#): > > Have you ever lived over here? Only for the first 36 years of my life (see post 28), during which for many years I had no health coverage at all. Some of those years, I wasn’t even a drug-dealing, welfare-cheating thief. > [@](#): > > Anything at all - the food they eat, the house they live in, the care their children get. Anything. You apparently didn’t understand my response. You said, "Handing them yet another government freebie will not give them any incentive to actually earn anything. " I responded with, “And the ‘incentive to actually earn anything’ would be a desire for any material goods or services exclusive of medical care, I presume.” To be more clear, I was stating that, by providing UHC, there still exists an incentive to buy anything that’s _not_ medical care. In other words, if a poor person has UHC coverage, if they want _anything else_ that money can buy, i.e. food, shelter, clothing, education, child care, luxuries of any kind, they would still have to work for that. I made no mention at all of providing free food, housing, etc. That’s YOUR strawman, not mine. > [@](#): > > However, my issue with the idea is that we cannot afford it over here. I don’t believe that for a second. The USA is the wealthiest country in the world and the _only_ industrialized, advanced nation that doesn’t have UHC. > [@](#): > > No, I didn’t. I was pointing out that it isn’t the _only_ factor, which is what you appeared to be trying to assert. Horseshit. You specifically said, “One [socialized medicine] most likely doesn’t have anything to do with the other [higher average life expectancies].” Conversely, I made no such claim that UHC was the _only_ factor. I was asserting, in roundabout fashion, that if UHC was so detrimental to a society, then surely there would be some evidence of this in lower life expectancies. I think most would find this to be a reasonable assertion, and the evidence is on my side, not yours. > [@](#): > > And? Another one word rebuttal. Quite the riposte. I’ll try one more time. Bismarck was a highly pragmatic and ruthless statesman whose primary goal was to increase his nation’s power and geopolitical standing. He was in favor of UHC _not_ because he “cared” about the working class, but because he saw it as one element to augment his nation’s strength. I’m pretty sure that he used even harsher terms than yours when referring to the lowest classes of society. This doesn’t have to be a left/right issue. It’s an issue of _pragmatism_. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/49 "2009-03-23T14:26:33Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > No one should be expecting to make a living picking up dog poop or handing food thru a drive-thru window, therefore they shouldn’t be expecting someone else to subsidize their insurance. I couldn’t pass on this repulsive little nugget. So, the people who do these jobs aren’t entitled to make a living? Really? Then why should do they these jobs in the first place? Reasonably, they shouldn’t. Then who _should_ do these jobs? Robots?\* You read like someone out of a Dickens novel. - I’m predicting a response of “teenagers, retirees, stay-at-home moms, illegal immigrants” or some combination thereof. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/50 "2009-03-23T14:40:27Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > If you want to get a realistic idea of why a UHC isn’t likely to work in the US, have a look at California. The liberals here have been giving people all these helping hands for so many decades that they think they deserve everything without giving back at all, even in the form of taxes. You mean the California that if it wrre an independent countru would be the 8th largest economy in the world? The state that pays mpre to the Federal govt in taxes than it receives back? The center for high-tech in the world? The state with about 5 of the best UniversitIes in the world? The state that draws tourists from areound the world? Yeah, too bad it’s not full of conservatives. Then it might be a thriving economy like Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/51 "2009-03-23T14:55:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m glad you started this thread, because now I don’t have to bother starting one to point out what a complete freaking idiot you are. You are completely wrong. However, as noted above, I have little interest in dicussing (in this thread) the actual merits of the debate in the other thread. Nor am I interested in discussing (in this thread) my intelligence or honesty or worthiness as a poster. I would consider addressing the issue of the American underclass (in this thread), but I’m not interested in a meta-debate about it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/52 "2009-03-23T15:14:21Z")
Sorry, you brought it here. You should know by now that you don’t get to steer a discussion once it’s in the Pit. Anyway, I don’t think your intelligence, honesty or worthiness as a poster are really worthy of discussion either. I haven’t got the requisite 30 seconds to spare… ---
**Author:** ![Dante](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dante/32/9673_2.png) [@Dante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/53 "2009-03-23T15:31:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Anyway, I don’t think your intelligence, honesty or worthiness as a poster are really worthy of discussion either. Not much of a discussion. I’m reasonably certain that most everyone who knows **brazil84** is on the same page. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/54 "2009-03-23T15:44:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You should know by now that you don’t get to steer a discussion once it’s in the Pit. Of course not. And you are free to spew as much nonsense as you like. However, I will probably not engage with you. On those issues, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/55 "2009-03-23T16:11:33Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You can do anything you want as long as I don’t have to pay for it. However, it would be far better in the long run for everyone concerned to teach people to live within their means. Please tell me there’s another way to interpret this, other than “poor people shouldn’t have the temerity to get sick.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/56 "2009-03-23T16:16:03Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > Please tell me there’s another way to interpret this, other than “poor people shouldn’t have the temerity to get sick.” “Sick people shouldn’t have the temerity to be poor”? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/57 "2009-03-23T19:35:08Z")
The one thing about serious illness is that whilst it is not completelt democratic, it is merciless and not particualr about who it chooses. **Curlcoat** is an absolute moron. The arguments this idiotic poster has made against UHC are asinine, childish, self serving and inapporpriate, in addition they lack compassion or moral decency, but above all else, they lack logic. I have seen others argue against UHC far more cogently and logically, and though I may disagree with their position, the fact is that they have some valid points. I don’t think I have ever seen more meritless arguements against UHC than those made by the dolt called [b[Curlcoat\*\*. I think that this poster is the best the best PR that those who are pro UHC could ever have, much in the same way that Fred Phelps is the best argument against organised religion that atheists have in their arsenal. If I were anti UHC, I think I would ask this stupid person to shut up. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/58 "2009-03-24T03:34:08Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Why are people still trying to talk sense into **Curlcoat**? It’s very obvious that she’s just going to listen to whatever facts she made up in her own head and **NOTHING ANYONE SAYS WILL EVER CONVINCE HER DIFFERENT** > > This is the second or third topic I’ve seen where people try to talk sense into **Curlcoat** ’s head. Give it up. > > **SHE IS NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU…BECAUSE YOU USE FACTS**. Wow. All of that because I (apparently) don’t agree with your interpretation of facts. And I say apparently because I don’t remember ever engaging you. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/59 "2009-03-24T03:37:19Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Wow. All of that because I (apparently) don’t agree with your interpretation of facts. And I say apparently because I don’t remember ever engaging you. 😕 Possibly also because you just make up facts to suit your argument, like “this stuff doesn’t happen in Canada,” or “California is a drain on the economy because of their extensive social services”. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275/60 "2009-03-24T04:03:01Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > Ah, yes, **curlcoat**. The one [who has collected disability](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10650798&postcount=206) and unemployment, but somehow others shouldn’t get insurance. I’m not sure why she should be able to collect disability for not working but others can’t get insurance. > > I’m sure it’s because she’s different and “appreciates” it more. Actually, it’s because I haven’t said those things - well, not all of them. I certainly don’t have any problem with anyone getting insurance, I am just tired of paying for programs like that. But then, you apparently don’t understand the difference between creating a program paid for by taxes (a UHC) and my taking out the unemployment that has been paid in for me for the past 35 or so years, or the Social Security the government has been taking from me that whole time. Oh, and one does not collect disability for “not working”… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mild-pitting-of-the-taos-revenge/490275.md?page=4)