A Mild Pitting of The Tao's Revenge

[curlcoat]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

I’d still like a cite for why the US is different from say, Canada, Sweden, the UK, and virtually every other first world country in regards to health care. “It just is” is Rush level stupid.

It would seem obvious. Size of population, size of land mass, the huge number of people we have who cannot be bothered to make a legal living, the fact that all of those other countries have had UHCs for ages before healthcare became what it is today. And of course, there are the healthcare plans that the US government already has, and mismanages.

All of which assumes that the UHCs in all of those countries are actually the wonderful thing folks think they are. For every rosy painting, we get a story of long waits for treatment, denial of treatment, high cost, etc. Or fun things like this. Gosh, I so look forward to paying for something like that! :rolleyes:

It’s damaging to the economy. Maybe Michigan wouldn’t have been economically crippled so bad if the autos we produce weren’t saddled with an out dated, and costly healthcare system.

Newflash - giving even more to people without making them actually pay for it isn’t going to help the economy at all. I’d say in the case of the auto industry, if the unions hadn’t forced such high wages for low skill work, maybe things wouldn’t have gone south. Or maybe if we didn’t keep teaching people that they can have it all, whenever they want it, the housing market wouldn’t be in the toilet and we would be paying billions to bail these people out.

Maybe if we had one like our neighbor’s to the North that costs half as much, meaning twice the medical cost is passed on to products we produce, hurting out competitiveness then maybe there wouldn’t be so many American families in my state fearing making next month’s rent.

What exactly do you think costs half as much in Canada?

You cry like Scrooge over making $100,000, and getting taxed. Many families here have to make do with much much less.

Big fucking deal. How much anybody makes is immaterial to whether or not a UHC here would be a huge expensive waste that might make things much worse than they are now.

One of the reasons that it isn’t all that easy to live on that here (and I don’t really care if you believe it or not) is the amount of taxes we pay to give people homes, food, healthcare, education, childcare - and many of these people don’t pay much if anything in the way of taxes! If you want to get a realistic idea of why a UHC isn’t likely to work in the US, have a look at California. The liberals here have been giving people all these helping hands for so many decades that they think they deserve everything without giving back at all, even in the form of taxes.

The result is twofold. The obvious one is that the tax rate on those who actually do pay taxes climbs constantly, so every year it becomes more and more difficult for people to live here. Salaries have to go up to keep people from moving out of state, meaning everything costs more and on it goes. The idiotic answer in the thread on this was “move out of California”. OK, well, when the whole country is in this situation, where do you suggest we move then? Heck, maybe the country is there already, given the current economy - maybe we have finally reached taxation critical mass

The other result of all these handouts is people have become incredibly entitled. The housing fiasco is one example, as those people felt they “deserved” to live in their own house and were fully willing to believe stories that were obviously too wonderful to be true. The amount of credit card debt many people carry these days is another - why wait for gratification if you can charge it? Deciding to have children when there is no way they can afford them is another - and of course, that leads to finding out that the government will give you even more if you have kids! I know I’m old but it really wasn’t that long ago that people didn’t buy anything other than their house on credit. Heck, my grandfather bought both of his houses for cash as did one of his brothers-in-law.

So, all you have to do is look around. Do you really think that giving Uncle Sam yet another responsibility for us is such a good idea? Do you really want to live in a country where everyone is equal and noone has any incentive to work hard? How many more things do you want to give people simply because they are alive?

I was born poor and stayed that way until my 30’s. I am not going to go back to it so you can feel better about yourself.

[curlcoat]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

I’d still like a cite for why the US is different from say, Canada, Sweden, the UK, and virtually every other first world country in regards to health care.

Sheesh, I just noticed that in the post you quoted there was a reason in there other than “it just is” and you just ignored it. Apparently, you aren’t interested in doing anything other than pretending that being responsible for oneself and planning ahead is evil.

[Cerowyn]

@curlcoat

To answer this hijack - why didn’t you post in the original thread? - free market has nothing to do with whether or not the US gets a UHC. There is apparently still a bare majority in this country that don’t want to live in a completely socialist society or a commune. Not that we aren’t already close to it…

Am I reading correctly that you are saying that Canada, the UK and Israel, for instance, are “completely socialist societies?”

[casdave]

Of course we are totally socialist, to own real estate int eh UK would be offensive, that’s why none of us have mortgages and we all live in state supplied hosung that is paid for by taxing the very few succesful entrepreneurs out of existance.

To be free you must have the right to die without medical assistance that you could not afford, suffering makes us free.

We Euros, and Aussies, and Kiwis feel so shackled and constrained, it’s terrible not to be free and live in a completely socialist nation, without the prospect of being bankrupted by medical expenses.

Socialism is a curse, its terrible living here, it’s just a shame we are so stupid that we continue to vote for it year after year, decade after decade, you’d think that we would prefer to be free to die on our own doorsteps in agony because over a third of us are not medically insured.

[Richard_Parker]

@curlcoat

Ah, another person who cannot tell the difference between the US and any other country. :rolleyes:

Øh yeah? Well take one of these! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And this: :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Zap! :dubious::dubious::dubious:

Pow!:eek::eek::eek:

<summons mystical energy>
<chants>

:mad::rolleyes::eek::);):D:dubious:(:smack::eek::rolleyes::mad:smack::(:rolleyes::eek::mad:;):dubious::(:o

[Alienhand]

@Richard_Parker

<summons mystical energy>
<chants>

:mad::rolleyes::eek::);):D:dubious:(:smack::eek::rolleyes::mad:smack::(:rolleyes::eek::mad:;):dubious::(:o

I think you missed, now my left leg is a stalk of celery.

[Richard_Parker]

Smiley Fu is more of a dark art than a science.

[Fuji]

@curlcoat

It would seem obvious. Size of population, size of land mass, the huge number of people we have who cannot be bothered to make a legal living, the fact that all of those other countries have had UHCs for ages before healthcare became what it is today. And of course, there are the healthcare plans that the US government already has, and mismanages.

A strange argument. The European Union has 200 million more people than the USA. While the various healthcare plans are administered on a national level, it is worth noting that Germany alone has 80 million people, while the UK, France, and Italy each have around 60 million people. In fact, the USA with its 50 states has almost twice as many political subdivisions at the federal level than the EU’s 27 member states.

I can also assure you from personal experience that, having lived in both the US and Europe, that there is no shortage of people over here “who cannot be bothered to make a legal living”. And yet, Europe still manages to survive, somehow.

All of which assumes that the UHCs in all of those countries are actually the wonderful thing folks think they are. For every rosy painting, we get a story of long waits for treatment, denial of treatment, high cost, etc. Or fun things like this. Gosh, I so look forward to paying for something like that! :rolleyes:

So, are you saying that people in the US don’t also have “long waits for treatment, denial of treatment, high cost, etc.”? If so, that’s a pretty surprising claim. If not, what’s your point?

It’s amazing that, despite being burdened with the horrors of socialized medicine, Japan, Singapore, Sweden, Australia, Switzerland, France, Iceland, Canada, Italy, Spain, Norway, Israel, Austria, Malta, the Netherlands, South Korea, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Belgium, Germany, the United Kingdom, Finland, and Bosnia and Herzegovina all have higher average life expectancies than the United States.

I was born poor and stayed that way until my 30’s. I am not going to go back to it so you can feel better about yourself.

Just so you know, Germany’s universal healthcare system, generally considered the world’s oldest, was instituted at the behest of that well-known flower child, Otto von Bismarck.

[DMC]

@curlcoat

…the huge number of people we have who cannot be bothered to make a legal living…

Can you define the bolded portion above, so we know what you are referring to, please?

While you’re at it, what about the people who can be bothered to make this “legal living”, but aren’t able to? Can we help them out?

[curlcoat]

@Cerowyn

Am I reading correctly that you are saying that Canada, the UK and Israel, for instance, are “completely socialist societies?”

Nope, I am saying that is what people are trying to move the US to.

[curlcoat]

@Fuji

A strange argument. The European Union has 200 million more people than the USA. While the various healthcare plans are administered on a national level, it is worth noting that Germany alone has 80 million people, while the UK, France, and Italy each have around 60 million people. In fact, the USA with its 50 states has almost twice as many political subdivisions at the federal level than the EU’s 27 member states.

The plan is to have one UHC covering all of the USA, not 50.

I can also assure you from personal experience that, having lived in both the US and Europe, that there is no shortage of people over here “who cannot be bothered to make a legal living”. And yet, Europe still manages to survive, somehow.

It survives, more or less.

I believe we have a far higher percentage of folks leaching off the taxpayer here and we don’t even give them free or cut rate healthcare unless they are extremely poor. Handing them yet another government freebie will not give them any incentive to actually earn anything.

So, are you saying that people in the US don’t also have “long waits for treatment, denial of treatment, high cost, etc.”?

Insured peope don’t tend to have any of these.

It’s amazing that, despite being burdened with the horrors of socialized medicine, Japan, Singapore, Sweden, Australia, Switzerland, France, Iceland, Canada, Italy, Spain, Norway, Israel, Austria, Malta, the Netherlands, South Korea, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Belgium, Germany, the United Kingdom, Finland, and Bosnia and Herzegovina all have higher average life expectancies than the United States.

One most likely doesn’t have anything to do with the other. Life expectancies are affected by genetics, smoking, diet, work, accidents and probably another score of things that have nothing to do with socialized medicine.

Just so you know, Germany’s universal healthcare system, generally considered the world’s oldest, was instituted at the behest of that well-known flower child, Otto von Bismarck.

So?

[curlcoat]

@DMC

Can you define the bolded portion above, so we know what you are referring to, please?

Drug dealers, welfare cheats, thieves, etc. You know, illegal ways to make a living.

While you’re at it, what about the people who can be bothered to make this “legal living”, but aren’t able to? Can we help them out?

You can do anything you want as long as I don’t have to pay for it. However, it would be far better in the long run for everyone concerned to teach people to live within their means.

[DMC]

@curlcoat

Drug dealers, welfare cheats, thieves, etc. You know, illegal ways to make a living.

Well, you didn’t really answer my question, but until you do, I’ll run with the non-answer that you did give. Would you then be fine with UHC if we were able to except drug dealers, welfare cheats, thieves, etc. (whatever the etc. means) from those eligible for it?

Do you personally live within your means? I don’t mean you as a family, I mean you as an individual?

[Fuji]

@curlcoat

The plan is to have one UHC covering all of the USA, not 50.

Still irrelevant. I live in Ireland. I could move to Eindhoven or Pavia tomorrow and I would still have UHC coverage there. Not exactly the same in its details, but close enough when compared to the status of non-coverage that, on an individual level, I (and half a billion others) have similar levels of coverage.

It survives, more or less.

I believe we have a far higher percentage of folks leaching off the taxpayer here and we don’t even give them free or cut rate healthcare unless they are extremely poor. Handing them yet another government freebie will not give them any incentive to actually earn anything.

I believe you are wrong. Have you ever lived over here?

And the “incentive to actually earn anything” would be a desire for any material goods or services exclusive of medical care, I presume.

Insured peope don’t tend to have any of these.

And how exactly does this help the tens of millions who have no coverage? The debate is about universal healthcare coverage, not partial healthcare coverage, which is the current setup.

One most likely doesn’t have anything to do with the other. Life expectancies are affected by genetics, smoking, diet, work, accidents and probably another score of things that have nothing to do with socialized medicine.

Wow. I can’t believe you just said that average life expectancy is not likely to be positively correlated with medical care. But, you just did.

So?

Do you know anything at all about Bismarck? My point was that even a hard-headed arch-conservative like him could see the pragmatic value of instituting UHC. Not all of those in favor of UHC (myself included) could be fairly described as “lefties”.

[The_Tao_s_Revenge]

@curlcoat

The plan is to have one UHC covering all of the USA, not 50.

Well that’s interesting point if true. One could make a good argument Florida might have different health care needs then Alaska.

Not really an argument against UHC so much as a thought on how to better implement it though.

It survives, more or less.

I believe we have a far higher percentage of folks leaching off the taxpayer here and we don’t even give them free or cut rate healthcare unless they are extremely poor. Handing them yet another government freebie will not give them any incentive to actually earn anything.

Have you ever tried living at poverty level? Trust me there’s plenty of motivation to do better. Most people here are hardworking but unskilled labor. They’re still doing jobs that need done. Someone’s gotta clean up, someone’s gotta make the food, assemble the parts, pick up the dog poo, ring up the customers, etc. These jobs while not heroic, skilled, or recognized do support a vital part of society.

Just our society currently takes their services and screws them out of basic human needs like healthcare. Is that right?

One most likely doesn’t have anything to do with the other. Life expectancies are affected by genetics, smoking, diet, work, accidents and probably another score of things that have nothing to do with socialized medicine.

Wow you think 40 million+ Americans not having access to regular health care, medicine, routine check ups, etc. doesn’t affect their life expectancy and reproductive health?

Seriously? for realz?

[curlcoat]

@DMC

Well, you didn’t really answer my question, but until you do,

So I read it backwards - you couldn’t figure it out?

I’ll run with the non-answer that you did give. Would you then be fine with UHC if we were able to except drug dealers, welfare cheats, thieves, etc. (whatever the etc. means) from those eligible for it?

Sure.

Do you personally live within your means? I don’t mean you as a family, I mean you as an individual?

Below it somewhat. Or a lot compared to most folks.

[curlcoat]

@Fuji

Still irrelevant. I live in Ireland. I could move to Eindhoven or Pavia tomorrow and I would still have UHC coverage there. Not exactly the same in its details, but close enough when compared to the status of non-coverage that, on an individual level, I (and half a billion others) have similar levels of coverage.

Not irrelevant. Big difference between one government trying to run a program to cover billions of folks, and a bunch of governments being willing to recognize each others programs.

I believe you are wrong. Have you ever lived over here?

Have you ever lived over here?

And the “incentive to actually earn anything” would be a desire for any material goods or services exclusive of medical care, I presume.

Anything at all - the food they eat, the house they live in, the care their children get. Anything.

And how exactly does this help the tens of millions who have no coverage? The debate is about universal healthcare coverage, not partial healthcare coverage, which is the current setup.

However, my issue with the idea is that we cannot afford it over here.

Wow. I can’t believe you just said that average life expectancy is not likely to be positively correlated with medical care. But, you just did.

No, I didn’t. I was pointing out that it isn’t the only factor, which is what you appeared to be trying to assert.

Do you know anything at all about Bismarck? My point was that even a hard-headed arch-conservative like him could see the pragmatic value of instituting UHC. Not all of those in favor of UHC (myself included) could be fairly described as “lefties”.

And?

[curlcoat]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Well that’s interesting point if true. One could make a good argument Florida might have different health care needs then Alaska.

I’m sure they would. However, that doesn’t change the fact that the push is for there to be one “insurance policy”, covering everyone in the US, run by the federal government.

Have you ever tried living at poverty level?

For almost 35 years, as I said just yesterday in this thread.

Trust me there’s plenty of motivation to do better.

There was for me, not so much for many of the folks around me for some reason. Of course, many of them were getting aid, which tends to lower the motivation.

Someone’s gotta clean up, someone’s gotta make the food, assemble the parts, pick up the dog poo, ring up the customers, etc. These jobs while not heroic, skilled, or recognized do support a vital part of society.

Just our society currently takes their services and screws them out of basic human needs like healthcare. Is that right?

It is neither right nor wrong. No one should be expecting to make a living picking up dog poop or handing food thru a drive-thru window, therefore they shouldn’t be expecting someone else to subsidize their insurance.

Wow you think 40 million+ Americans not having access to regular health care, medicine, routine check ups, etc. doesn’t affect their life expectancy and reproductive health?

I can only hope it affects their reproductive health, tho it doesn’t seem to based on the number of children born every year in third world countries. As for the rest of that, see above.

Seriously? for realz?

What are you, a LOLCat?

[Idle_Thoughts]

Why are people still trying to talk sense into Curlcoat? It’s very obvious that she’s just going to listen to whatever facts she made up in her own head and NOTHING ANYONE SAYS WILL EVER CONVINCE HER DIFFERENT

This is the second or third topic I’ve seen where people try to talk sense into Curlcoat’s head. Give it up.

SHE IS NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU…BECAUSE YOU USE FACTS.

[GIGObuster]

@curlcoat

Have you ever lived over here?

I lived in both a country that has UH and in the US.
You are an idiot. *

• in the Greek sense.