# A Million Poor Young Black Men in Jail **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062 "2009-10-25T16:55:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/21 "2009-10-26T02:56:19Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Unless you’re arguing that black people are genetically rather than socially disposed to crime? 😉 Personally I blame the candy pop rocks. An entire generation of youth were taught to associate banging noises and explosions with pleasurable sensations and physical satiety. Its behaviorism and Pavlov’s dog gone mad, and led to an increase in gun fights. What in the hell did science think was going to happen? Thank god they took those off the market. The Devil’s boogers, I used to call those things. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/22 "2009-10-26T04:02:13Z")
The other problem with the prison system is that when you throw someone in prison, you’re putting him in an environment for a few years where his potential social group consists entirely of criminals. Of course this isn’t going to teach folks not to break the law: Quite the opposite. When they get out, they apply the lessons they learned in prison, and end up even worse. No, I don’t know what the solution is, either. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/23 "2009-10-26T05:04:58Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I would say to reform the black population of the USA so that the cycle doesn’t perpetuate we need to institute conscription or State Service for all men and women not going to college at age of 18. There they can join the military, or the Peace Corps or some other public service and learn useful skills. Please note that the Peace Corps is a somewhat selective program that pretty much only accepts people with a college degree (the rare exception being highly skilled public works tradesmen with decades of experience) and relevant experience. The idea is to send already skilled people to countries to help train community members. It is not in any way a job training program (although it can provide a bit of a career boost to a fresh college grad wanting to go into public service) and is not a place for unskilled workers. I’m currently a college teacher through Peace Corps- hardly a job for an under-educated teenager. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/24 "2009-10-26T06:08:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The other problem with the prison system is that when you throw someone in prison, you’re putting him in an environment for a few years where his potential social group consists entirely of criminals. Of course this isn’t going to teach folks not to break the law: Quite the opposite. When they get out, they apply the lessons they learned in prison, and end up even worse. > > No, I don’t know what the solution is, either. That is actually a big problem for terrorism recruitment too. People go into prisons in third world countries and the brutality they face from the prison systems in places like the middle east make them more receptive to the ideas proposed by terror organizations. I was reading a RAND study a few years ago that found terror recruitment was a huge problem in prisons (internationally). Al Zawahiri, the #2 of Al Qaeda was recruited in prison after years of torture. So yeah, the system is totally screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/25 "2009-10-26T11:11:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The other problem with the prison system is that when you throw someone in prison, you’re putting him in an environment for a few years where his potential social group consists entirely of criminals. Of course this isn’t going to teach folks not to break the law: Quite the opposite. When they get out, they apply the lessons they learned in prison, and end up even worse. > > No, I don’t know what the solution is, either. Not to mention they spend most of their time eating and lifting weights so they are freakin monsters when they get out. They should only let them sit around watching TV and playing XBox so they come out too flabby and out of shape to commit crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/26 "2009-10-27T00:16:29Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Please note that the Peace Corps is a somewhat selective program that pretty much only accepts people with a college degree (the rare exception being highly skilled public works tradesmen with decades of experience) and relevant experience. The idea is to send already skilled people to countries to help train community members. It is not in any way a job training program (although it can provide a bit of a career boost to a fresh college grad wanting to go into public service) and is not a place for unskilled workers. I’m currently a college teacher through Peace Corps- hardly a job for an under-educated teenager. > > Thanks! Sorry for lack of knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/27 "2009-10-27T00:30:50Z")
I think it’s a good idea to have a controllable, but nonzero, number of violent criminals now that both the public and private sectors have learned to monetize the stream, as well as the fear created by crime. People are making money off it; besides, the changed nature of policing from public service to social control keeps both potential criminals _and_ the law-abiding from lightly defying those in power. In short, unless you’re some lefty puke concerned with civil liberties and the quality of life, everybody worth benefiting benefits. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/28 "2009-10-27T01:43:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not to mention they spend most of their time eating and lifting weights so they are freakin monsters when they get out. They should only let them sit around watching TV and playing XBox so they come out too flabby and out of shape to commit crimes. Don’t forget message boards! ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/29 "2009-10-27T01:53:06Z")
You really want these people learning to get their rox off _typing?_ What will happen to the crime? Society needs the crime! ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/30 "2009-10-27T02:37:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Sorry for lack of knowledge. No problem! It happens pretty often…people don’t really have a solid idea of what Peace Corps does. And, as someone who has worked really hard to do what I am doing, I try to inform people when I can. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/31 "2009-10-27T12:55:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think the justice system wanted him to not become a drug dealer and get into a gunfight with a crackhead in the first place. Every person makes mistakes. Why should one mistake prevent you from moving forward in society? More importantly, how should my neighbor get employment if his background prevents him from getting past the first interview. The justice system in the U.S is either (a) racist or (b) intentially racist. I bet you a $1,000,000 dollars that if drinking and driving or sexually sidling up to children were done by predominately black men, these crimes would have stiffer penalties. Keep in mind that my neighbor didn’t go to jail for killing someone; indeed, he was notified at the hospital after recovering from three gunshot wounds (one of which that pierced his lung) that his gun wasn’t registered. Registered? Why should he go to jail for carrying an arm (arguably) guaranteed by the Second Amendment, while white men can rape babies, toddlers, infants, children, and seduce young teenagers and get a slap on the wrist. (God, it’s the only thing I agree with O’Reilly about). I have a solution. It’s a simple one. If you served your time in jail, your crimes should not be searchable on a database. \*\*These individuals paid their debt to society. \*\* The justice system can’t say, “Go Forth and Integrate Into Society” while allowing private and public employers to discriminate against them. The only people that should be watched are the child molesters whose recidivism rate is off-the-charts. I’m left a Rev. Wright-ish conclusion that the justice system does not want ex-felons entering the job market and therefore mires both black (and white) men from fruitfully contributing to society. If you bar or make excruciatingly difficult for ex-felons to get a job, these individuals will likely go back to a life of crime. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/32 "2009-10-27T14:13:23Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Every person makes mistakes. Why should one mistake prevent you from moving forward in society? Because the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Certainly not perfect, but certainly a lot better than nothing. When one applies for a job, one is in competition for everyone else applying, most of whom have managed to stay out of prison. If you hire an ex-con, the chances are that much higher than he will steal from you/deal drugs on the premises/show up late or not at all for his shift/fuck up in whatever ways make him a less valuable employee than Joe Average who mustered up the effort to graduate from Jefferson Washington Memorial High School instead of Sing Sing. > [@](#): > > I’m left a Rev. Wright-ish conclusion that the justice system does not want ex-felons entering the job market and therefore mires both black (and white) men from fruitfully contributing to society. I think you are grossly over-estimating the amount of attention society has to spare for ex-cons. As well as (rather insultingly, in my opinion) denigrating the effort of the average black person. The large majority of black people in the US manage to make it thru their whole lives without dealing drugs, shooting anyone, or being sent to prison. But you would rather not let anyone know about that, when they apply for a job. No, they have to be on the same level as a pimp or a drug dealer. If black and white men want to ‘fruitfully contribute to society’, how about if they start by not committing crimes that will get them sent to prison? You know, just like everybody else does. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/33 "2009-10-27T14:28:39Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I have a solution. It’s a simple one. If you served your time in jail, your crimes should not be searchable on a database. \*\*These individuals paid their debt to society. \*\* The justice system can’t say, “Go Forth and Integrate Into Society” while allowing private and public employers to discriminate against them. Ad hominem du jour: Have you ever hired anyone for a job? Or supervised workers below a college-degree-required level? I am assuming you have not. If you had, you would immediately see how unfair what you’re proposing is. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/34 "2009-10-27T15:24:21Z")
Put birth control in the 40s. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/35 "2009-10-27T15:41:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Don’t forget message boards! Hey I went for a 3 mile run and then worked out at my gym for 45 minutes yesterday. These quads aren’t going to blast themselves. > [@Honesty](#): > > Every person makes mistakes. Why should one mistake prevent you from moving forward in society? More importantly, how should my neighbor get employment if his background prevents him from getting past the first interview. The justice system in the U.S is either (a) racist or (b) intentially racist. What? They just accidently got up in the morning, brushed their teeth, went outside and spent each day for the nexy 2 years selling crack? Do you want a convicted money launderer handling your finances? What about a convicted sex offender babysitting your kids? How about a violent offender dating your daughter or sister? Would you want a convicted theif handling money in your cash register or expensive inventory? Employers place their employees in a position of trust. They are trusted to do their job honestly and may have access to sensitive information or cash and other assets. Sure people make mistakes. But should I as an employer risk someone making another “mistake” that will cost me money? > [@Honesty](#): > > I bet you a $1,000,000 dollars that if drinking and driving or sexually sidling up to children were done by predominately black men, these crimes would have stiffer penalties. Um, drinking and driving and sexual assault of a minor DO actually carry pretty stiff penalties. > [@Honesty](#): > > Keep in mind that my neighbor didn’t go to jail for killing someone; indeed, he was notified at the hospital after recovering from three gunshot wounds (one of which that pierced his lung) that his gun wasn’t registered. Registered? Why should he go to jail for carrying an arm (arguably) guaranteed by the Second Amendment, For the same reason [Bernhard Goetz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz)did? Because it was against the law. > [@Honesty](#): > > …while white men can rape babies, toddlers, infants, children, and seduce young teenagers and get a slap on the wrist. (God, it’s the only thing I agree with O’Reilly about). Mmmm…I see… > [@Honesty](#): > > I’m left a Rev. Wright-ish conclusion that the justice system does not want ex-felons entering the job market and therefore mires both black (and white) men from fruitfully contributing to society. If you bar or make excruciatingly difficult for ex-felons to get a job, these individuals will likely go back to a life of crime. The job market is not part of the justice system. Employers make their own decisions on who they hire. I would agree that the background check process with many companies is becoming overly intrusive - credit checks, drug tests, 5-10 years of work history. Maybe it makes sense in my profession where I amd dealing with corporate fraud and whatnot. It’s still a pain in the ass though. But as I mentioned before, employers also have an interest and a right to not hire people who they are concerned might steal, defraud or otherwise cost the company money. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/36 "2009-10-27T15:43:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Certainly not perfect, but certainly a lot better than nothing. > > When one applies for a job, one is in competition for everyone else applying, most of whom have managed to stay out of prison. If you hire an ex-con, the chances are that much higher than he will steal from you/deal drugs on the premises/show up late or not at all for his shift/fuck up in whatever ways make him a less valuable employee than Joe Average who mustered up the effort to graduate from Jefferson Washington Memorial High School instead of Sing Sing. I must be a strange duck. I’ve hired 2 ex-cons in my days so far…and these were for ‘desk-jobs’. They were honest about being ex-cons and both were in for violent reasons. They said they were having a hard time getting jobs and they came across as really wanting to prove themselves. Both of them did well (they were years apart when they worked for me - they didn’t both work at the same time). The problem came when it ‘got out’ about one of them that he was an ex-con. The women in the office threw a fit…though they had worked with him over a year. The owner, to his credit, stuck by him. I imagine this is a rare exception to the world at large. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/37 "2009-10-27T15:59:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Certainly not perfect, but certainly a lot better than nothing. I believe that people have the capability to change. But let’s have fun and assume you’re right and that past behavior is a good measuring stick to judge past behavior. What do you,\*\* Shodan\*\*, think we should do with the felons who have served their time? These individuals are hand-waved from employment and prevented from taking federal loans for college. Can you give me an alternative that doesn’t involve constructing a time machine? They are American citizens, too. > [@Shodan](#): > > The large majority of black people in the US manage to make it thru their whole lives without dealing drugs, shooting anyone, or being sent to prison. But you would rather not let anyone know about that, when they apply for a job. No, they have to be on the same level as a pimp or a drug dealer. Oh please. I’m only responding to the title of the thread. If the title was “The Successes of Black People” then I would cheerfully chime in. In case you haven’t noticed, such titles on SDMB are implicitly verboten; instead, we debate on whether black people are to genetically inferior to white people. > [@Shodan](#): > > Have you ever hired anyone for a job? Or supervised workers below a college-degree-required level? > > I am assuming you have not. If you had, you would immediately see how unfair what you’re proposing is. How is it unfair? These individuals have paid their debt to society and should be able to integrate back in. If you don’t want to hire them, why not put them on a welfare rolls and be done with it? Mission accomplished. Because whether you’ll acknowledge this or not, legal employment and educational discrimination against ex-cons is the engine that drives ex-cons back to criminal activities as a means to gain revenue. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/38 "2009-10-27T16:00:56Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > I imagine this is a rare exception to the world at large. Depends on what you mean by “rare”. > [@](#): > > Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime. [Cite](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm). So if you hire an ex-con, you are taking a one-in-three chance that he won’t get arrested again, and a little bit better than fifty-fifty he won’ be guilty. (And, to be fair, almost three chances out of four that he can stay out of prison for at least three years.) The trick is to compare those chances against the chances of hiring one of the roughly 97% who have never been to prison. Obviously not every one of the non-cons will work out perfectly, any more than all the ex-cons will rob you blind. But success in life comes largely from figuring out good strategies for dealing with a statistical universe. You can hire the guy who has never been to prison, who has a less than 12% chance of going to prison. Or the ex-con, who has a 26% chance - in the next three years. Hmmmm… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Minnie\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Minnie\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minnie_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/39 "2009-10-27T16:08:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I would say to reform the black population of the USA so that the cycle doesn’t perpetuate we need to institute conscription or State Service for all men and women not going to college at age of 18. There they can join the military, or the Peace Corps or some other public service and learn useful skills. But don’t the kids at most risk join gangs well before they turn 18? > [@](#): > > The other problem with the prison system is that when you throw someone in prison, you’re putting him in an environment for a few years where his potential social group consists entirely of criminals. Of course this isn’t going to teach folks not to break the law: Quite the opposite. When they get out, they apply the lessons they learned in prison, and end up even worse. I am reminded of the Johnny Depp movie _Blow_. He is sent to jail for dealing pot and his cell-mate/friend in prison is a coke dealer. The quote is "Danbury wasn’t a prison, it was a crime school. I went in with a Bachelor of marijuana, came out with a Doctorate of cocaine. " ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062/40 "2009-10-27T16:09:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Um, drinking and driving and sexual assault of a minor DO actually carry pretty stiff penalties. [Right.](http://http://www.hollyscoop.com/mel-gibson/mel-gibson-what-dui_21636.aspx) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-million-poor-young-black-men-in-jail/515062.md?page=3)