# A moderate arab's point of view on the lebanese conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289 "2006-08-04T05:09:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/101 "2006-08-07T15:48:02Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Instead of being childish and getting heated over this, let me ask you a question. If there were a peace negotiation, and concessions had to be made, which side do you think would have to give more up and why? [/QUOTE] Which concessions do you feel Israel would have to make to Hezbollah, considering they already withdrew from south Lebanon and this did not stop Hezbollah from attacking into Israel. [QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Personally, I can’t see how ANY peace can be achieved if Israel doesn’t give up either all or a very large chunk of the land they’ve occupied over the years. [/quote] Of course “large chunk” is somewhat relative when we’re talking about a nation (Israel) that’s about the size of postage stamp, but you will remember that Israel already withdrew from Lebanon. Which large chunks of Lebanese land occupied by Israel should they withdraw from? [QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] So, Hizbollah, one day decided that it’d be a good reason to jump up and start kidnapping Jews and start killing civilians? [/QUOTE] No they’ve alway though it is a really smashing idea to kill Jews. Take if from the horse’s mouth. A quick Wiki look will give you half a dozen quotes on the genocidal nature of Hezbollah. > [@](#): > > “if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” > > “It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth” > > "they [Jews]are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment.” > > “There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel.” > > “Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.” > > “I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called “Israel.” I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful.” > > “The Jews invented the legend of the Nazi atrocities…Anyone who reads the Koran and the holy writings of the monotheistic religions sees what they did to the prophets, and what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history… Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment.” > > “If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. - You’ll notice Hezbollah is really trying to win over the hearts and minds here. Racism and genocide. It is dreams like this which people in the thousands march in western cities in support of, so I guess he has been able to touch some hearts and minds. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/102 "2006-08-07T17:02:12Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] “the victims of the US-sponsored Israeli genocide of innocent Lebanese civilians” [/QUOTE] If it’s a genocide, it’s a pretty poor one. Isn’t the term “genocide” reserved for attempts to wipe out an entire genetic line (usually a “racial” or ethnic group), and NOT for just plain old killing? The Israelis aren’t making much attempt to round up and “get” all the Lebanese. As genocide goes, it’s lame. If you truly meant to use it refer to killings with any intent other than to exterminate a specific genetic group, you’ve misused it, IMHO. Isn’t that the “spin” decried by the OP? Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/103 "2006-08-07T17:33:46Z")
If you believe the war started 23 days ago over a raid in Israeki occupied land ,you are simply writing off years of conflict as irrelevant. Could be Israel is trying to pigeon hole the Arabs into non voting areas.Demographic trends a few years ago indicated as things were going along ,Palestinians and Arabs would soon have a voting majority in Israel. This is a oermanent solution… ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/104 "2006-08-07T17:49:17Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Granted, Weirddave’s assessment is light on facts and glosses over quite a bit (and exaggerates a bit as well)…but the core seems reasonably accurate to me. After all, he wasn’t really attempting to give a historical disertation on the '48 conflict and the various parts played on all sides…just a quick and dirty couple of lines. Which part specifically are you having a problem with? (not that this specifically touches on the OP, but I’m curious on your own take on ‘history’…if this glossy look at the high points is ‘propaganda’ to you). Is it the full citizenship thing? Thats definitely overstated. But Israel DID ask the proto-Palestinians (i.e. Arabs living in the region) to stay, and did claim they would make provision for them. In addition, some of those Arabs who stayed ARE citizens today (you did know, I’m sure, that there are Israeli citizens of Arab decent). The majority chose to flee towards the liberating Arab armies in the hopes that they would smash Israel and they would live happily ever after (yeah, I’m exaggerating too :)). It didn’t quite work out well for them though… (not that I’m of the opinion that even if the combine Arab armies HAD smashed Israel that those proto-Palestinians would have reaped vast rewards in any case) -XT [/QUOTE] If Weirddave supported the palestinians, he would say something like: The palestinians were living in peace, not bothering anybody. The U.K forcibly colonized them and imposed their rule in 1917. Before leaving in 1947,They gave the authorization to a bunch of jews after WW2 to create a state there on palestinian land. The arabs tried to reclaim their land, failed miserably against much better organized, equipped and U.S backed Israeli army. Israel claimed a bunch of land after those victories.Ever since, sporadic conflict has reigned. Israel thrives and kills 3.3 palestinians for each of their dead. The end. Oh, and did I mention that the arabs were URL=[Dhimmi - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi)]much nicer to said jews than europeans. No pogroms, no Inquisition, no Hitler. See, my description is also factually correct. And it’s just as useless as Weirddave’s. I just wish we could stop with all the f\*\*\*ing spin. There are no “good guys” and “bad guys”. All adults should realize that at one point or another if they’re not complete idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/105 "2006-08-07T17:50:25Z")
[Fixed link from last post](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi) ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/106 "2006-08-07T17:57:17Z")
[Quote:Originally Posted by Gozu] That said, it irks me when news sources present this conflict as a somewhat even-sided conflict. [/quote] [Quote:Originally Posted by Finnagain] I’ve been watching/reading (too damn much) news. I haven’t noticed that happening. Can you elaborate on that? [/quote] Better late than never. Hhere]([Quote:Originally Posted by Gozu) here is a pretty compelling proof of the Rampant Pro-Israeli bias in the U.S press. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/107 "2006-08-07T18:00:47Z")
Ack! I don’t know what’s wrong with me today! (Well, I know what it is…I didn’t preview). Here is a fixed version of my last post. My apologies. [Quote=Gozu] That said, it irks me when news sources present this conflict as a somewhat even-sided conflict. [/quote] [Quote=Finnagain] I’ve been watching/reading (too damn much) news. I haven’t noticed that happening. Can you elaborate on that? [/quote] Better late than never. [Hhere](http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/whoweare.html) is a pretty compelling proof of the Pro-Israeli bias in the U.S press. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/108 "2006-08-07T18:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] So, Hizbollah, one day decided that it’d be a good reason to jump up and start kidnapping Jews and start killing civilians? You mean to tell me that they had nothing else BETTER to do? NOTHING happened that provoked a reaction (a horrible reaction, but a reaction nonetheless). [/QUOTE] You tell me. Why do YOU think Hezbollah started things then? Do you consider it justification? [QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] This is slowly turning into everyone beating their heads into walls, with nothing being gained on either side. Let’s face it, there’s really no cominbation of words that I can possibly say that can make you see my way. So far, I’m not convinced or swayed by any of your arguments either. Calling this a debate is mislabelling it at this point, no? [/QUOTE] The debate? Certainly its turning into such (been there for a while from my perspective)…simply because you STILL refuse to actually engage in the debate. And most of the folks on your side are exactly the same. You toss out raw statistics without context as if that proves something (but…but…BUT…Israel has killed more civilians than Hezbollah has! :eek: ). You make statements without backing any of it up…even with logic. You refuse to engage the points brought up by Finn or myself or any of the other people in the various threads…you just keep recycling the same bullshit over and over again. When your bullshit IS engaged, you move on to the next point and don’t engage on the points covered…until you figure enough time has gone by, or you are in a different thread. In which case, you bring the point up again, as if its fresh and new. So yes…calling this thing a ‘debate’ is mislabelling it. Only one side seems to be even attempting to engage IN the debate thus far. And I’ll give you a clue here…it isn’t your’s (or you). [QUOTE=gonzomax] If you believe the war started 23 days ago over a raid in Israeki occupied land ,you are simply writing off years of conflict as irrelevant. Could be Israel is trying to pigeon hole the Arabs into non voting areas.Demographic trends a few years ago indicated as things were going along ,Palestinians and Arabs would soon have a voting majority in Israel. This is a oermanent solution.. [/QUOTE] Can you say ‘strawman’? IOW, who exactly do you think is saying that this thing started 23 days ago, blah blah blah? Who was this meant to reply too…because I don’t see anyone saying this. And what, by gods hairy balls, does Palestinian voting have to do with the situation in Lebanon? Are you seriously contending that if Israel gave Palestinian’s the vote (after anexing all of Palestine I suppose…why else would they let them vote?), this would some how magically fix things between Israel and Hezbollah? If so…well, why? [QUOTE=Gozu] The palestinians were living in peace, not bothering anybody. The U.K forcibly colonized them and imposed their rule in 1917. Before leaving in 1947,They gave the authorization to a bunch of jews after WW2 to create a state there on palestinian land. The arabs tried to reclaim their land, failed miserably against much better organized, equipped and U.S backed Israeli army. Israel claimed a bunch of land after those victories.Ever since, sporadic conflict has reigned. Israel thrives and kills 3.3 palestinians for each of their dead. The end. [/QUOTE] Can you say ‘strawman’ too? YOu are putting words into Weirddave’s mouth, assuming you know what his position is…based on one rough summary post of the history of the '48 conflict. I note also that you didn’t answer my own questions by engaging them, but instead answered with this strawman post of what you THINK is Wierdave’s position. Your strawman being more factually incorrect than Dave’s btw. I think I’m winding down at this point folks. (listens for the cheers of joy that XT is finally going to shutup 😛 ). I know I promised some cites to DMC (one of the few on the other side to even attempt to engage the debate), but I’m not sure I’m up for continually beating my head against the wall here. We’ll see… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/109 "2006-08-07T18:20:03Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] If a weapon cannot be aimed at a specific target than that kind of limits it from being aimed at a specific target. Your post used the words ‘aim’ or ‘aiming’ four times, and started by shifting the burden of proof by saying that although you didn’t know if they were aiming at military targets, you hadn’t seen anything saying that they weren’t aiming at military targets. You then went on to say that if they were aiming at military targets they were doing a better job than the IDF. Ignoring, for instance, that Hezbollah hides among civilians and thus the death toll of civilian deaths will almost always rise whenever Israel hits a Hezbollah position. Yes, that’s how I know that virtually every report about the katushas mentions that they are unguided. Shifting the goalposts. You did not claim that the ratio of civilians to soldiers/gueriallas was different, but that if Hezbollah were aiming at military targets, they were more efficient at targeting military assets than the IDF. The correct comparison would be what percentage of Hezbollah unguided rockets were targeted at military targets (0% as they cannot be targeted at anything other than a large geogrphic area), vs what percent of IDF guided missiles/bombs were targeted at military targets ( greater than 0% as we know for a fact via video confirmation of IDF strikes on rocket emplacements) A number greater than zero is larger than zero. This should tell us whose rocket/missile attacks are better at targeting military assets. You can also not handwave away the factors and context that contribute to this situation as ‘whatever reasons’. They’re tremendously important, not irrelevant. No, it’s an irrelevancy and you’re attempting to change the subject. You did not claim that Israel killed more civilians than Hezbollah, you claimed that Hezbollah, if they were targeting military targets, was better at it than Israel was. Israel can have a 99% success rate for hitting Hezbollah targets, but because they’re hiding among civilians, virtually all of those strikes will end up killing civilians as well. If they’re hiding in densely populated areas the ratio will be even higher. The ratio itself tells us nothing about whether or not the strikes were directed at military targets. Common sense, however, tells us that if the IDF was striking targets that they believed were not military, deliberately, in order to strike random targets or deliberately strike civilians, that there would be no two stones standing together in all of Lebanon. Indicriminate bombing with Israel’s arsenal would be carpet bombing. Unless the IDF is just horribly lazy, and they just fire off a missile every now and again at some random location instead of actually fighting a war. You were the one who claimed that if Hezbollah was targeting military targets, than they were better at it than the IDF. That’s a factual claim, albeit predicated on an if-then statement. Do you retract it? You don’t know what percent of IDF strikes hit Hezbollah members, and yet you claim that if Hezbollah is targeting Israeli military assets, they’re better at it. Even though you have no idea how many IDF strikes have hit Hezbollah members. That’s a factual claim based on things that you do not know, even though you say you don’t do that, and only I do. However, as Israel has released video of several missile strikes targeting rocket launchers, thus providing proof… we know that they are infinitely better at targeting military targets with missile strikes than Hezbollah is at targeting military targets with rocket strikes. After all, any number is infinite when divided by zero. Israel doesn’t have to have killed a greater percent of Hezbollah than civilians, they only have to have a greater percent of their strikes targeting Hezbollah than the percent of Hezbollah’s rocket strikes that target the IDF. As we’ve already established that 0% of katusha strikes are targeted at the IDF, obviously the IDF having one single guided missile strike on Hezbollah means that they’re better at targeting military targets. No, it doesn’t. Virtually every report about katushas has mentioned that they are unguided. Something not guided cannot be said to be aimed at anything other than a rough direction and range. You can shoot at something in a very general area, but you can’t be said to be shooting at anything other than that general area. That’s why they are refered to, time and again, as weapons of terror. Precision targeting, or any meaningful targeting, is impossible. If I fire a weapon that I know will land “somewhere in or around New York City”, I can’t be said to be targeting any street address in NYC. Wrong. You have no idea what Hezbollah is actually trying to hit. I know that the rockets do not have the ability to target anything specific, so they cannot be trying to hit anything specific. You can’t be trying to hit something if it’s impossible to hit any specific thing/place that you’re trying to hit. If I fire a rocket that I know will land “somewhere in or near New York City” I cannot then reasonably claim to be targeting the South Street Seaport. I cannot reasonably claim to be targeting any specific group of people. I cannot claim to be targeting anything except “the area in and around New York City”. Relying on the statistics alone without context serves no purpose. Cite? Something other than the simple statistics? What evidence do you have that the IDF is being indiscriminate with its fire? The statistics tell us nothing specific. All it takes is one rocket launcher on top of an apartment building, and a strike that was without a doubt targeted at a military target will also kill a number of civilians. But the fact that one guerilla may be killed along with twenty civilians in the building doesn’t mean that the strike wasn’t targeted at the rocket launcher. [/QUOTE] I don’t understand why you two are arguing about this. Both sides think it’s acceptable to kill civilians. Each side hates the other because of it. Simple. If India decided that they had enough of all the cow-killings going on in the U.S and attacked, would they be wrong? What if the americans were eating kittens? What if they were eating the children of the homeless? What if they ate the americans of indian descent? (the OTHER indians this time). Who decides at what point one side is wrong and the other isn’t? Does that person have to be a cow-eating one or not? You just have to accept that for it to be an absolute answer, there must be an absolute viewpoint. But there isn’t one! There never will be. We humans like to disagree on things. So the only possible solution would be an [ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny](http://media.putfile.com/ultimateshowdown) and reduce the human population to 1. Or maybe 2 if they’re both mormons. The mormons never disagree. ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/110 "2006-08-07T18:22:41Z")
[QUOTE=Gozu] If Weirddave supported the palestinians, he would say something like: The palestinians were living in peace, not bothering anybody. The U.K forcibly colonized them and imposed their rule in 1917. Before leaving in 1947,They gave the authorization to a bunch of jews after WW2 to create a state there on palestinian land. \*\*The arabs tried to reclaim their land, failed miserably against much better organized, equipped and U.S backed Israeli army. \*\* Israel claimed a bunch of land after those victories.Ever since, sporadic conflict has reigned. Israel thrives and kills 3.3 palestinians for each of their dead. The end. Oh, and did I mention that the arabs were URL=[Dhimmi - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi)]much nicer to said jews than europeans. No pogroms, no Inquisition, no Hitler. See, my description is also factually correct. And it’s just as useless as Weirddave’s. I just wish we could stop with all the f\*\*\*ing spin. There are no “good guys” and “bad guys”. All adults should realize that at one point or another if they’re not complete idiots. [/QUOTE] US gave no miltary support until 1962 to Israel & really did not provide anything close current levels until after the 1973 Yom Kippur Wars ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/111 "2006-08-07T18:51:02Z")
[QUOTE=Gozu] If Weirddave supported the palestinians, he would say something like: The palestinians were living in peace, not bothering anybody. The U.K forcibly colonized them and imposed their rule in 1917. Before leaving in 1947,They gave the authorization to a bunch of jews after WW2 to create a state there on palestinian land. The arabs tried to reclaim their land, failed miserably against much better organized, equipped and U.S backed Israeli army. Israel claimed a bunch of land after those victories.Ever since, sporadic conflict has reigned. Israel thrives and kills 3.3 palestinians for each of their dead. The end. Oh, and did I mention that the arabs were URL=[Dhimmi - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi)]much nicer to said jews than europeans. No pogroms, no Inquisition, no Hitler. See, my description is also factually correct. [/QUOTE] No, it isn’t . Most of what you wrote is factually _in_correct. There’s a difference, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/112 "2006-08-07T18:53:17Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] No, it isn’t . Most of what you wrote is factually _in_correct. There’s a difference, you know. [/QUOTE] Correct, incorrect, it’s two little letters! ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/113 "2006-08-07T19:52:40Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Well Gozu, the reason why you don’t know any rabid Moslem fanatics is because you choose not to associate with them. [/quote] And there are few of them, thankfully. Plenty of conservatives though. > [@](#): > > I am quite prepared to accept that a heck of a lot of Moslems think Hezbollah and Hamas are a bunch of turds, and that they would rather like to see them exterminated. I think of them the same way I think about those german soldiers in WW2 who were not nazis and who believed they were just fighting for their country.Many of them believe in what they’re doing and sacrifice everything for their righteous cause. I’d disband them but not exterminate them. Never demonize people. Good and bad people everywhere. Hizbollah and Hamas are no exception. > [@](#): > > I know a fair bit about Israel, as a non Jewish individual who has been going there on business since 1991. > > There are several things you should know, about 20% of Israelis are not Jewish, they are all sorts of other things, some Moslem, some Christian, there are Druze and Samaritans. > Bedouins serve in the IDF. True. > [@](#): > > Also Israel is /not/ a religious state, there are some religious political parties, but they are a minority. True. > [@](#): > > Like you, I am choosy about my friends, most of the Israelis I know are pretty liberal, don’t think much of fanatics, regard orthodox Jews as freaks, and like nothing better than tucking into pork spare ribs in the suburbs of Tel Aviv. > > I only know just one ardent Likud supporter, and she is a stupid cow, universally disliked in the large company that I deal with. My friends told me about her politics as a way of illustrating how thick she is. Unfortunately, there are many Likud supporters. As many as Bush supporters over here, proportionally speaking. > [@](#): > > Also, I was told that Israel /armed/ the PLO under Arrafat, and were disgusted to see those arms used against them. And I assume some early americans were disgusted to fight Indians to whom they had given rifles. These things happen often. > [@](#): > > Israel is well aware that at least 75% of the Lebanese population want to have nothing to do with Hezbollah, and they have made a point of causing them minimum disruption. Minimum disruption = not invading and not killing hundreds of civilians and causing billions worth of damage to a relatively poor country (compared to the U.S and Israel). Nobody forced them to do all this, no matter what anyone says. And they sure as heck didn’t do it for a handful of kidnapped or killed soldiers. > [@](#): > > The ‘infrastructure’ stuff has been aimed at making it difficult for Hezbollah to get supplies, by air, sea and by land from surrounding Syria. It is not aimed at 75% of the population, if anything it protects them. I have seen lebanese people being interviewed and they seem to overwhelmingly disagree with you. Even the 75% who aren’t hisbollah sympathizers. > [@](#): > > To be honest, it is likely that very few Israelis particularly care whether the wives, children or mothers of Hezbollah ‘freedom fighters’ get killed, but they are acutely aware of World opinion, so they don’t want unpleasant pictures of corpses turning up. I agree with you 100%. > [@](#): > > Another thing that is generally not understood it that the 1967 border stuff is totally unacceptable - there is no way Israel is going to give up East Jerusalem or the new suburbs that they built around it. They are too proud of it, you see in 1948 they got the new city which is rubbish, in 1967 they got the old city and they have spent a fortune restoring it. It is a remarkable place. Jerusalem does not belong to them alone. It belongs to all 3 major religions and they should all have equal say in it. Since there are 2 bn christans, 1.2 bn muslims and only a few dozen millions jews in existence, I’d say this is a fair deal to them. How much have they spent restoring it? i’m sure they can deduct that amount from all the indemnizations they owe the palestinians who lost their houses, lands and other properties when they went into exile or flew to protect their spouses and children from all the violence. Assuming those lands, houses and properties were taken by the jews. Fair is fair. > [@](#): > > All the Israelis want is to be left in peace, they have no territorial ambitions and accept that Ghaza and the West Bank cannot be ‘occupied’, and that it is very difficult to prevent a minority of militants terrorizing the population. I believe they still have a number of settlements in those territories you speak of. Are you sure they have no territorial ambitions? > [@](#): > > Personally I think the ‘Palestinians’ are nuts, if they had any sense they would simply demand Israeli citizenship - politely, but firmly. Would that be extremely humiliating to them? Anyways, the two palestinians I met seemed fairly sane to me. One of them was some cab driver who clearly hated Israel but I didn’t hold it against him, assuming he probably had valid reasons. I paid the bastard 45 bucks. So much for solidarity amongst muslims 😜 > [@](#): > > If you can, and my guess is you have a US passport, go and look at the place, I would not recommend it as a holiday excursion for someone elderly, but for someone moderately canny who is interested in getting a feel for a rather unusual place that reeks of ancient history - then it is one of the most interesting places I’ve ever been. Good advice. > [@](#): > > Personally I would abolish religion, but this Israel stuff is not really about religion or race, it is really that Israel is an outpost of the West in the Middle East. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/114 "2006-08-07T20:04:34Z")
**xtisme** , **FinnAgain** : ignoring the Human Rights Watch report cited above isn’t going to make it go away. They’re impartial observers, as their merciless dissection of Hizbullah shows (and they’re correct; every katyusha fired is in effect a new war crime) and they conclude that Israel has indeed deliberately targetted civilians. My objection to what Israel is now doing is the same reason I wrote off the Palestinians long ago: if you target civilians, you gain nothing but hate from the victims. It doesn’t win you anything. And militarily it’s worthless. Not to mention, as I have before, that the precipitate way in which they made all of Lebanon pay for what happened at the border killed any chance of cooperation from the rest of Lebanon in the enterprise of neutering Hizbullah, and undermined potential allies who now can’t be seen to cooperate with Israel without being labelled traitors. All of which does wonders for the receiving end’s will to resist, though, a lesson Israel should have known from its own history. All in all, remarkably crude, cruel, and stupid. That our dolt of a Prez supports them wholeheartedly in this enterprise is a measure of its stupidity and short-term orientation at the expense of long-term security. Meantime, Iran gets closer and closer to nuclear nirvana. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/115 "2006-08-07T20:06:48Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] No, it isn’t . Most of what you wrote is factually _in_correct. There’s a difference, you know. [/QUOTE] Why didn’t you point the flaws in it? That way, I can write another statement which is JUST as anti-Israel and which also happens to be factually correct. Even by your standards. Do you doubt it can be done? Here is a factual description of the united states: Bunch of europeans came, massacred the natives, put the few remaining in tiny reservations, enslaved black people and thrived. The end. I was trying to make a point, Alessan. That point was that these short, simplistic statements who clearly favor one side over the other are actually quite worthless and certainly out of place here in great debates. Once again, there are no good guys, there are no bad guys. Not when you’re talking about whole populations and countries. I thought it would please you that I do not think of Israelis as bad guys. Heck, I’m pro-Israel in principle. I just wish things had worked out better. For both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/116 "2006-08-07T20:09:15Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] **xtisme** , **FinnAgain** : ignoring the Human Rights Watch report cited above isn’t going to make it go away. They’re impartial observers, as their merciless dissection of Hizbullah shows (and they’re correct; every katyusha fired is in effect a new war crime) and they conclude that Israel has indeed deliberately targetted civilians. My objection to what Israel is now doing is the same reason I wrote off the Palestinians long ago: if you target civilians, you gain nothing but hate from the victims. It doesn’t win you anything. And militarily it’s worthless. Not to mention, as I have before, that the precipitate way in which they made all of Lebanon pay for what happened at the border killed any chance of cooperation from the rest of Lebanon in the enterprise of neutering Hizbullah, and undermined potential allies who now can’t be seen to cooperate with Israel without being labelled traitors. All of which does wonders for the receiving end’s will to resist, though, a lesson Israel should have known from its own history. All in all, remarkably crude, cruel, and stupid. That our dolt of a Prez supports them wholeheartedly in this enterprise is a measure of its stupidity and short-term orientation at the expense of long-term security. Meantime, Iran gets closer and closer to nuclear nirvana. [/QUOTE] I tend to agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/117 "2006-08-07T22:29:26Z")
My understanding is that the Israelis (and the US) misread the situation on two significant points. Firstly that Hezbollah was the disorganised, rabble-like force it may have been in the early days. It is not. Given its resources, it is an extremely well-organised, proficient military organisation. Secondly that demonising Hezbollah would cause more Lebanese to ostracise them. In fact the opposite has happened: there is unprecedented support in Lebanon and throughout the wider Arab world, and it is growing. More worryingly, there is significant and growing Sunni support for Hezbollah (which is a Shiaa organisation). This war has become a huge awareness campaign and PR drive for Hezbollah. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/118 "2006-08-07T23:08:07Z")
Hadn’t intended to jump back into this, but since my name was mentioned… [QUOTE=pantom] xtisme, FinnAgain: ignoring the Human Rights Watch report cited above isn’t going to make it go away. [/QUOTE] Ignoring mine (and Finn’s) responses to the HRW report doesn’t make them go away…in fact, they are STILL right here in the thread! Imagine that! :eek: [QUOTE=pantom] They’re impartial observers, as their merciless dissection of Hizbullah shows (and they’re correct; every katyusha fired is in effect a new war crime) and they conclude that Israel has indeed deliberately targetted civilians. [/QUOTE] You are again making assumptions here. First off, that HRW ARE impartial observers. I have my doubts. Secondly, that they have PROOF that Israel has ‘indeed deliberately targetted civilians’. They CLAIM to have such proof, but in the response you chose to ignore from me on this I asked (and ask again)…show me the money! Lets see this proof. They can SAY anything they want…and it will still be a load of hot air until they come up with said proof. You see, what they HAVE is anecdotal information from folks who were bombed (not exactly unbiased or even reliable sources), claiming that, nope…there was no Hezbollah in these parts. Israel just bombed us 'cause we are civilians. At least, thats all the ‘proof’ I’ve seen from HRW thus far on the subject. Now, if you want to dig up what they are contending is their proof and present it, then I can look it over and see if it shifts my position on this. But then, you’d actually be engaging in the debate…wouldn’t want to spoil the record, ehe? [QUOTE=pantom] My objection to what Israel is now doing is the same reason I wrote off the Palestinians long ago: if you target civilians, you gain nothing but hate from the victims. It doesn’t win you anything. And militarily it’s worthless. Not to mention, as I have before, that the precipitate way in which they made all of Lebanon pay for what happened at the border killed any chance of cooperation from the rest of Lebanon in the enterprise of neutering Hizbullah, and undermined potential allies who now can’t be seen to cooperate with Israel without being labelled traitors. [/QUOTE] Again, you are making assumptions…namely that if Israel chose to do nothing and just take it up the ass without batting an eye or lifting a finger, that this would have somehow translated into good will and fellowship from their buddies the Lebanese. Again…I have my doubts. History does not seem to be on your side on this one, though I suppose there is a first for everything. Here’s your big chance to actually engage the question. What SHOULD Israel have done? What was the ‘correct’ response to the constant cross border raiding, most recently marked by the capture of these two soldiers? How long should they have let things just go on? Forever? What should their response been to the buildup in recent years of Hezbollah’s paramilitary capabilities? Nothing? Feel free to respond in depth. [QUOTE=pantom] All of which does wonders for the receiving end’s will to resist, though, a lesson Israel should have known from its own history. All in all, remarkably crude, cruel, and stupid. That our dolt of a Prez supports them wholeheartedly in this enterprise is a measure of its stupidity and short-term orientation at the expense of long-term security. [/QUOTE] Uhuh. I can see that their long term security prospects were certainly on the rise from not doing anything before. Hell, their various neighbors were all just starting to trust and love Israel before they willfully attacked poor Lebanon and started laying the country to rest. Just the other day, before all this nasty Israeli aggression, Iran was saying how much they burn for Israel and wanted to give them a present. I’m sure the constant raids on Israel were just the various peaceloving groups in the region being playful and showing Israel that they care… [QUOTE=Gozu] I tend to agree with you. [/QUOTE] There’s a shocker. 😛 [QUOTE=istara] Secondly that demonising Hezbollah would cause more Lebanese to ostracise them. In fact the opposite has happened: there is unprecedented support in Lebanon and throughout the wider Arab world, and it is growing. More worryingly, there is significant and growing Sunni support for Hezbollah (which is a Shiaa organisation). This war has become a huge awareness campaign and PR drive for Hezbollah. [/QUOTE] They are fighting Israel…of course they are going to be popular. Oh, thats right! :smack: I forgot that the Arab World™ had just recently started to love Israel and accept them as a neighbor! Before all this started of course… -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/119 "2006-08-08T01:56:29Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Hadn’t intended to jump back into this, but since my name was mentioned… [/quote] He loves us, he really really loves us! [QUOTE=xtisme] Ignoring mine (and Finn’s) responses to the HRW report doesn’t make them go away…in fact, they are STILL right here in the thread! Imagine that! :eek: [/quote] Well, I don’t know… I certainly haven’t pointed out, time and time again, that precise targeting becomes almost impossible during the fog of war if you can’t always tell your enemy from the civilian population, and that outright mistakes will happen much more often. For those reading along, by the way [this is the methodology of the HRW statement.](http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/3.htm#_Toc142299221) Notice, by the way HRW’s metric: > [@](#): > > on-site investigations did not identify any signs of military activity in the area attacked, such as trenches, destroyed rocket launchers, other military equipment, or dead or wounded fighters. You wouldn’t find dead or wounded fighters if they were dressed exactly the same as dead or wounded civilians, and you wouldn’t, say, find caches of explosives if they all cooked off in secondary explosions… like whatever caused a building in Quana to suffer enough damage to be ‘flattened’ upwards of six or seven hours after the IDF hit it. Would HRW have the expertise to distinguish a crater caused by an IDF strike from a crater caused by ammo cooking off after an IDF strike? Also, on the topic of their actual investigations: > [@](#): > > Security conditions did not permit on-site visits to many of the villages or other sites where civilian casualties are documented in this report, but in all cases Human Rights Watch located eyewitnesses to attacks. Not exactly the most reliable way of ‘proving’ something, is it? Notice as well HRW’s, erm… [‘logic’ about responsibility.](http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/5.htm#_Toc142299223) > [@](#): > > Human Rights Watch research established that, on some limited occasions, Hezbollah fighters have attempted to store weapons near civilian homes and have fired rockets from areas where civilians live. However, such practices do not justify the IDF’s failure to distinguish between combatants and civilians. Um… yes they do. That’s exactly why it might be very very difficult to have valid intel, and why the fog of war would be much more extreme. Other gems include but are not limited to: > [@](#): > > On July 15, for example, a group of villagers from Marwahin left the area in a convoy, in part because Hezbollah was attempting to store weapons behind their homes, and residents feared a retaliatory IDF strike.9 Two rockets believed to have been fired from Israeli helicopters struck a white pick-up and a passenger car in the convoy on the road between the villages of Chamaa and Biyada, killing twenty-one civilians (see “Attacks on Fleeing Civilians”). A U.N. team trying to retrieve the bodies came under fire from the IDF.10 While the villagers’ flight could be attributed in part to Hezbollah’s unlawful attempt to store weapons in Marwahin—the main reason for flight was the Israeli warning to evacuate within two hour—Human Rights Watch found no evidence to suggest that Hezbollah fighters were near the civilian convoy when it got hit. No evidence to suggest Hezbollah was near the convoy? What, were they looking for Hezbollah tracks? I know what bear tracks and rabbit tracks look like, what exactly would a Hezbollah track look like to prove that they were around there, or that Israel had good reason to think they were around there? Maybe HRW had a Hezbollah-O-meter? Yet more quality stuff: > [@](#): > > On Saturday July 15, at about 9:30 p.m., an Israeli Apache helicopter fired into the home of Ibrahim Suleiman, a wage laborer, in the village of Houla, located on the Israel-Lebanon border 25 kilometers east of Tyre. “Neither he nor his children were involved in Hezbollah, nor was there any [Hezbollah] resistance in the town at the time,” Oh, there were no Hezbollah folks in the entire town, and this guy’s neighbor knows. For sure. Without a doubt. And he inspected his neighbor’s basement, and knew whether or not there were rockets in it. Without a doubt. And he knew where the man’s children were, at every hour of the day, and what they were doing, without a doubt. On HRW’s credibility wrt Israel, there has been a pattern of a rush to judgement, on Jenin, and Quana, on the blast that killed several Palestinians on a beach, etc… They have a habit of often taking Arab claims as gospel and treating Israel’s as lies-to-be-disproven. At least in discussion over their role in the conflict Israel is in with many of the other nations in the region, HRW is hardly a great source. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289/120 "2006-08-08T02:57:37Z")
> [@](#): > > A U.N. team trying to retrieve the bodies came under fire from the IDF. That’s from your own little quote. Those guys wear blue helmets, I believe. Shiny blue ones. That reflect light. That can easily be seen from a helicopter. But there’s a lot more in there. If you choose to disbelieve this and the sheer weight of hundreds dead, while the number of Hizbullah dead might number maybe 100 (0 dead in the initial ambush, 0 dead in the rocket strike that killed the 12 reservists; as for the rest, all we have are Israeli claims, which, this being war, should be discounted as mere propaganda), well, there’s not much to say, is there? As for answering what the alternative would be, in depth, I have elsewhere, repeatedly, and been ignored, repeatedly. So, no. Not doing it again. Feel free to dig up the relevant posts and answer them, if you wish. Besides which, this BS about how the only alternative is that the Arabs were proposing peace & love is your usual tactic of the excluded middle. Which you know, but you don’t care. You just keep doing it, over and over and over like you’re dealing with someone who’s never seen that tactic before. I have. Meantime, you ignore pretty much the entirety of Lebanese history and the pre-war words and actions of Saad Hariri (Sunni), Walid Jumblaat (Druze), and the leader of the Maronite Christians (Christian, just in case that passed you by), all of whom, at one time or another, called for the disarming of Hizbullah. Even Siniora (Sunni) came close, although he put up the fig leaf of a national conference or something where it could be discussed. No, no cites, because this stuff is ridiculously easy to find, for everyone but Israeli intelligence, Fox News, and you guys. But like my posts on the alternative to what’s happening now, feel free to, you know, do a little research. Carry on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moderate-arabs-point-of-view-on-the-lebanese-conflict/367289.md?page=7)