A moderate arab's point of view on the lebanese conflict

[FinnAgain]

Ahem.

[scruffy grog-soaked pirate voice]Arrrrrrr… perharps [/sgspv]

Fixed.
(Just in case my truly, erm, brilliant use of pirate-dialect-for-conspircy-mongers wasn’t immediately evident to everybody.)

[Weirddave]

@FinnAgain

What… that wasn’t supposed to be a comedy piece?

Maybe we’re misreading it and Washington is dispatching Mel Gibson to Lebanon to kill civilians before they can use the supplies. Then we can reclaim the supplies and resell them in dollar stores for a tidy profit. Diabolical!

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

This commentator is pithy.
http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060802/NEWS/608020406/1002/business

On one side of the asymmetry, the Arabs openly call for the elimination of Israel - the political subjugation of its people, if not the outright physical slaughter of the Jews. As groups such as Memri.org amply demonstrate, Arab opinion leaders openly advocate genocide - though few around the world seem to notice or care.

Yet, for all their bold talk, those Arabs haven’t gained the military means to achieve their murderous goals.

On the other side of the asymmetry, the Israelis sit and watch. They have the power to do to the Arabs what the Arabs want to do to them, but they, the Israelis, choose not to use it. Israel could wipe out the entire Arab population of the West Bank, Gaza and Southern Lebanon if it wanted to - and still have plenty of firepower left over, conventional as well as nuclear, to destroy every Arab capital.

Yet, while the Israelis are willing to take tough measures, including the forcible removal of a population, as seems to be happening in parts of Lebanon today, they are distinctly unwilling to kill large numbers of Lebanese; even after two weeks of fighting, estimates of civilian dead number in the hundreds, as opposed to thousands, let alone millions. bolding by Bosda Di’Chi

[Triskadecamus]

If, as asserted, only a tiny fraction of Arabs support the endless war against Israel, why then is Hezbolah not referred to in Arabic press as a small band of criminals? If only a tiny fraction of Muslims wish to prosecute a holy war against those of other faiths, where are the hundreds of published fatwas condemning the act as an abomination? The silence of the rank and file among Arabs, Muslims, and the non religious among those populations speaks far louder than a few voices speaking out of a Religion of Peace.

I find it sad that my own country participated in the creation of a religious state in the Middle East, against all the principles of our own Constitution. I have spoken out here, and elsewhere that the War in Iraq, and Afghanistan is unconscionable. I don’t see that sort of expression coming from the rank and file of the Arab, and Muslim world.

We are involved in these wars because a plurality of Americans wants to be involved in these wars. We don’t get to claim other wise with any sort of honest self understanding. Neither do the Arabs, or the Jews. Hating other people is not a good thing. But it is a very common thing, and speaking out against it requires actually being against it. Dropping bombs and firing rockets at unknown strangers is the expression of the true level of desire for peace and love, not an aberration created by spin.

Tris

[BrainGlutton]

Here’s an article speculating on why Hassan Nasrallah, the Secretary-General of Hezbollah, decided, after things were relatively quiet for so long, to start lobbing shells into northern Israel, precipitating a predictable military response. The author thinks Nasrallah is partly just rendering service to his backers in Iran and Syria, but mainly, he acted out of desperation to prevent Hezbollah in Lebanon from being disarmed and reduced to just another political party.

[Finagle]

@Gozu

In one of the threads in GD, someone asks what the deal is with the rocket attacks against israeli towns. I’d say blind rockets attacks are about as effective compared to the israeli offensive as a bunch of people throwing stones are against an armed military squad.

Well, if the rockets stored up by Hezbollah are tactically useless against military targets, one might ask why they’ve stockpiled 17,000 of them? They’re apparently useful only as a weapon of terror for killing civilians. So Hezbollah apparently has no problem with the massacre of civilians – they’re just not very good at it.

That said, it irks me when news sources present this conflict as a somewhat even-sided conflict. It is proveably not so. In general, whenever you are dealing with an armed conflict of any kind, count the dead. Dead Combatants, dead civilan men, women and children on each side. Compare both figures and draw your own conclusions.

I’m sure you’re making a point here, but I can’t figure out what it is. First of all, not a single news source I’ve seen has portrayed the conflict as even-sided. Secondly, war isn’t like a one-design sailboat race – the point is not to wait until the other side is as well armed as you are so it will be a fair fight. And thirdly, if you don’t want to get the living shit kicked out of you, it’s probably a good idea not to randomly lob rockets into the cities of a well-armed and pissed off neighbor.

I do not have hard figures but if anyone cares to find some cites, I am confident there will be a pronounced assymetry in the number of casualties for each side. I wonder how many regular joes know this and whether it would change their perspective.

• Everyone * knows this. Anyone who has turned on the TV or read a newspaper article has seen the death tolls.

The other thing I’d like to point out is that only a tiny minority of arabs actually support the killings perpetrated by hizbollah or hamas. A solid majority of israelis support the current offensive. Does Israel truly have the moral high ground here?

That moral high ground would be a lot lower if the large majority of Arabs who don’t support the killings perpetrated by Hizbollah or Hamas actually did something to reign them in.

[Gary_T]

@Gozu

The other thing I’d like to point out is that only a tiny minority of arabs actually support the killings perpetrated by hizbollah or hamas.

And an even tinier minority - zero that I can see - have done a damn thing to stop or even hinder said killings.

A solid majority of israelis support the current offensive.

Offensive is an interesting word choice for a military action whose aim is to stop the intentional bombing of Iraeli civilians, given that said bombing is clearly and solely an offensive operation. Nevertheless, who wouldn’t support their country’s efforts to protect its citizens from imminent harm?

Does Israel truly have the moral high ground here?

Yep. On the Arab side you’ve got some intensely homicidal maniacs with the intent purpose of killing Israeli civilians, and a general poplulace who either support them, or hypocritically disdain them but fail to oppose them. On the Israeli side you’ve got a standard military force - that does not go out of its way to harm civilians - trying to incapacitate said maniacs, and a populace that supports it. One need only look at the motivation behind each side’s military endeavors to see where the moral high ground is. While a case can be made that Israel could do better morally, they’re nowhere near as low as Hezbollah and Hamas, who are in the swamp, figuratively speaking.

[Contrapuntal]

@Gozu

The other thing I’d like to point out is that only a tiny minority of arabs actually support the killings perpetrated by hizbollah or hamas.

Really? From here –

Tens of thousands of Shiites thronged a Baghdad slum Friday to show support for Hezbollah as Arab anger toward Israel mounted on the Muslim holy day. Such protests have even reached Saudi Arabia, where public discontent is rare.

[DMC]

@rock party

Where is the outcry from the Lebanese people when Hezbollah moves in next door? I watch the news and listen for ANYONE Lebanese begging for Hezbollah to get away from the civilians and stop using the infastructure but I never hear it. Why is this?

Perhaps you should seek alternate channels for your news.

[msmith537]

@Gozu

As many of you know, we are surrounded by spin and our lives are significantly affected by it. Spin is very, very effective. The U.S president employs a great spinner who speaks to the press. All big companies have several spinners working in their marketing and PR departments.

Yes and the Muslim world is pretty good at it as well. What part does Lebanon play in provoking this conflict?

That said, it irks me when news sources present this conflict as a somewhat even-sided conflict. It is proveably not so. In general, whenever you are dealing with an armed conflict of any kind, count the dead. Dead Combatants, dead civilan men, women and children on each side. Compare both figures and draw your own conclusions.

[/QUOTE]

Who told Hizbolah to start kidnapping Israeli soldiers and shooting rockets into Israel?

@Gozu

In one of the threads in GD, someone asks what the deal is with the rocket attacks against israeli towns. I’d say blind rockets attacks are about as effective compared to the israeli offensive as a bunch of people throwing stones are against an armed military squad.

Yeah. Whether you get blown up by a rocket or have your skull crushed by a rock, you’re just as dead.

[DMC]

@msmith537

Yeah. Whether you get blown up by a rocket or have your skull crushed by a rock, you’re just as dead.

If we’re going to use the “just as dead” yardstick to determine equivalency, then victims of terrorism and victims of “collateral damage” are equally comparable.

[XT]

@DMC

Perhaps you should seek alternate channels for your news.

Could you provide a cite from one of these alternative channels you frequent? I have to admit, I haven’t seen a wide scale protest against Hezbollah by the people of Lebanon either. For that matter, include a cite of the Lebanese government condemning Hezbollah’s actions…to round things out.

Thanks in advance.

-XT

[RedFury]

@Weirddave

I don’t see anything hypocritical about it. Civilians in Lebanon need help, so we give it. Israel has the right to protect itself, a goal we are committed to, so we sell them weapons. (note that they are “lethal” weapons. I guess Congress refused to authorize the Nerf Nuke™ that Israel wanted) In fact, I think the two go together quite logically. We support the right of Israel to defend itself against attack. Israel’s goals in this conflict are to destroy or severely damage Hezbollah with the smallest amount of civilian casualties possible, humanitarian aid to civilians is entirely consistant with that goal. What you and the other Anti-Semetic posters utterly fail to recognize is that there ARE going to be civilian casualties, they are a by-product of the war that Hezbollah started, a by-product that Hezbollah wants and tries to maximize. The fault here lies with Hezabollah, not Israel. There is no conflict of interest here. The humanitarian supplies are to ease the suffering and pain caused by Hezbollah while the “lethal weapons” (snicker The blatent bias is too fucking funny) are for Israel to defend itself.

Aaah! The old “anti-Semitic” cannard. And here I thought I was referering to Israel, the USA and their foreign policy. Oh well, live and learn.

Meanwhile, a bit more on hypocrisy:

Justice Is Dead, If You’re Born an Arab

I still feel a shudder of deja-vu at the irony with which I wrote last week about the ‘generosity’ of the US government’s gift of 2,000 rolls of plastic sheeting to the Lebanese as it rushed precision guided missiles to its henchmen in Israel. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that my macabre analogy would become a self-fulfilling prophecy. But there it was right before my eyes. A picture of a series of tiny bodies wrapped in plastic sheets so magnanimously donated by Uncle George and Aunti Condi, callously murdered by the very weapons they had so eagerly equipped the Israelis with. The names of little Mehdi aged seven and Abbas aged one were scrawled in black ink on labels identifying the victims of the US-sponsored Israeli genocide of innocent Lebanese civilians. (I wonder if the felt tip pens and labels were included in the humanitarian aid packages as a gesture of thoughtfulness? What a touching detail!)

<snip>

The media circus would like us all to believe that this crisis has proliferated solely because of Hezbollah’s irresponsible capture of Israeli soldiers. There is some truth to this. But I wonder how it is that statements by the Israeli government about threatening to take Lebanon back 20 years and putting the whole population of Gaza ‘on a diet’ are mysteriously seen as pacifist, uninflammatory and unprovocative? Does it not strike the intelligent reader as a bit strange that the kidnapping is considered such a heinous crime and an outrage whereas the illegal occupation of the Shebaa Farms and Tela Kafr Shooba in the South of Lebanon as well as the entire West Bank and the continuous build-up of illegal Israeli settlements is not?

But who talks of the Israeli abduction of a Palestinian doctor and his brother from Gaza that led to the eventual capture of these soldiers? Who even bothers to mention the fact that 10,000 Palestinian prisoners languish in Israeli jails? What about the Israeli bombing of a power station that condemns the already wretched Palestinians to a life without water or sewage? Or the wall of apartheid that has been constructed to strangle the Palestinians of their basic human rights?

Does anyone remember the failed illegal assassination attempt by Israel that not only missed its target, but left three Palestinian children dead and 15 civilians wounded on June 20? Or how about on June 13 when in a similar feat, the Israelis missed again (pinpoint accuracy, remember?) and killed nine? Or June 9 (perhaps that’s pushing history a bit too far) when Israel shelled a beach in Beit Lahiya killing eight and injuring several others?

Oops! Silly me! I forgot that the dead I mentioned are Palestinians, the new millennium equivalent of the World War I term ‘cannon fodder’. Am I mistaken or was it not the same Uncle George who warmly welcomed Prime Minister Siniora in the White House three months ago (now we’re getting into pre-historic times!) praising the ‘hundreds of thousands of people who took to the streets to express their desire to be free’? And now Uncle George leaves them ‘free’ to hang by allowing the Israelis a little bit more rope?

And, pardon me for asking, but if there was just such a huge threat to Israeli security by the crude missiles and rockets fired into it by Hezbollah why is it that the massive evacuation of foreigners that was so urgently carried out from Lebanon has not been deemed necessary from Israel?

Much more at source…

[DMC]

@xtisme

Could you provide a cite from one of these alternative channels you frequent? I have to admit, I haven’t seen a wide scale protest against Hezbollah by the people of Lebanon either. For that matter, include a cite of the Lebanese government condemning Hezbollah’s actions…to round things out.

I haven’t seen a wide scale protest either (although it depends on how you define wide-scale), but that’s not the claim I was responding to. There are plenty of Lebanese who are quite upset with Hezbollah at the moment. It’s being reported in obscure media outlets such as the NYT (link to a quote of the story for those who don’t want to register).

This is also nothing new. Reports of pissed off Lebanese have been around since this shit started.

Can I now assume that the next time you see someone toss that canard into the fray that you’ll swat it down?

[Weirddave]

@RedFury

Aaah! The old “anti-Semitic” cannard. And here I thought I was referering to Israel, the USA and their foreign policy. Oh well, live and learn.

It’s not a cannard. It’s not even a canard. You can twist it all you want to justify it to yourself, but when you so adamantly support an organization that has as one of it’s stated goals the extermination of Israel, the shoe fits like Cinderella’s slipper. If you were posting your filth in support of the KKK, I’d refer to you as a racist. Your own words condemn you.

[DMC]

@Weirddave

It’s not a cannard. It’s not even a canard. You can twist it all you want to justify it to yourself, but when you so adamantly support an organization that has as one of it’s stated goals the extermination of Israel, the shoe fits like Cinderella’s slipper. If you were posting your filth in support of the KKK, I’d refer to you as a racist. Your own words condemn you.

While it’s possible that I missed it, I haven’t seen RedFury support Hezbollah in any way shape or form, much less support their stated goal of the extermination of Israel (nor post anything anti-semitic at all). Feel free to point me to the appropriate post so I can soundly denounce the anti-semite.

[AFAIKnow]

@RedFury

Meanwhile, a bit more on hypocrisy:

Justice Is Dead, If You’re Born an Arab

Much more at source…

You really should venture out of the opinion pieces for your facts every once in a while. No one really cares what some obscure guy thinks. Especially if his opinion is produced by you second hand for the whole world to see as if it is some kind of affidavit affirming your misguided opinion. Did you get confused by the “Arab News” at the beginning of the piece?I could link to several people who has an opinion exactly opposite of his. What does that prove? Besides the fact that I depend on others opinion to affirm my own?

[threemae]

At some point there has to be proportionality.

Allow me to be the first to say that Hezbollah is a bunch of bastards, but killing members of the UN or literally as many children in a single strike as Israeli civilians have died in the whole conflict is absurd.

Furthermore, they are playing into exactly what Hezbollah wanted at the start of this conflict when they kidnapped soldiers and lobbed a few missles: preventing Hezbollah from becoming a disarmed marginal has-been of an organization. What ultimate long term goal does Israel honestly feel that it is advancing at this point? Will this generate democratic, stable neighbors filled with people that don’t hate it? Or will Israel just hope to have a future that continues to be defined by bloodshed, strife, and fear?

I really doubt that anyone wants the latter; certainly not Israel. I hope that in short order cooler heads prevail and that the region sees the injection of a real and effective multinational peace keeping force. It might prove a wise investment to try to help rebuild the infrastructure destroyed in the latest conflict.

Also, I pray that Israel has the ability and foresight to show just a touch more restraint in the pursuit of its goals and manages to avoid killing scores more plum-pickers.

[OliverTwistofLime]

@RedFury

Cite or anti-Arab bias?

To support the veracity of my statement, check out tens of thousands of articles regarding suicide bombers,statements by Arab leaders touting the destruction of Israel…as well as my anti TERRorist comment.

I am anti anyone who supports the total destruction of Israel whether actively or passively.

I had no misguided idea that I would be able to convince you not to think the way you think.

[XT]

@DMC

I haven’t seen a wide scale protest either (although it depends on how you define wide-scale), but that’s not the claim I was responding to. There are plenty of Lebanese who are quite upset with Hezbollah at the moment. It’s being reported in obscure media outlets such as the NYT (link to a quote of the story for those who don’t want to register).

If you were simply saying that there is some minority of Lebanese who dislike (or even hate) what Hezbollah is doing, then I misunderheard you and apologize. You are, of course, correct…there are quite a few actually.

-XT