As does Israel, according to the same group. I have no problem with both sides being considered guilty of not showing a lot of restraint when it comes to civilians, so thanks for bringing the facts to light.
Okay, me responding now instead of my dad (who you’ve probably been going back and forth about for a while).
Both sides are wrong. Hizbollah is enmeshed with the community. Going on about that almost sounds like the British blaming the revolutionary Americans that they were fighting a guerilla war instead of lining up on plains and getting shot up by cannon, where the British had a big advantage. Hizbollah is attacking Jewish civilians. This is true. This is not good. I’d love to see this stop, but this simply WON’T stop unless Israel stops their geographical genocide. Let’s not mince words. This is what the Jewish state is doing. They’ve got settlements littered all over the “useful” land in Palestine with roads crisscrossing the land, roads that conveniently DON’T get bombed by Israeli weapons.
Of course, this is all publically and widely known information. The issue seems to be culpability. Revolutionaries aren’t going to just spring up, they’re created. Hizbollah attacks Israeli civilians fow two reasons. One, it works. It’s unfortunately effective. Two, it’s what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians for many moons. Where does this shit stop? It has to stop with concessions. For ANYTHING to work, Israel is going to have to give up a shitload more than the Palestinians would, mostly because Israel is in the wrong.
Out of curiousity, what would you do concerning the situation there?
Lastly, to answer the question, a moderate Arab’s point of view would probably find Israel to blame. The degree of blame is the only sticking point, and the definition of “moderate” would mean something close to 50/50.
Let’s not absolve anyone, both sides are committing some crimes and doing some Very Nasty Things. Doing nasty things gets no resolution. It only escalates and doesn’t bring a conclusion.
I agree completely.
Wow. My dictionary just began weeping.
Engaging in a delberate and systematic campaign to murder all the geography.
Good thing we’re not mincing words.
I know that context and facts are anathama to your position about how Israel is deliberately trying to murder geography, but have you considered that those roads don’t get bombed becasue Syria isn’t using them to supply Hezbollah with weapons? Or because if there are violations on them, Israel can exercise police powers?
Don’t let reality get in the way of a good rant though.
I know you’re fighting for inclusion in the League of Bombastic Gentlemen, and that history isn’t your strongsuit, but the ‘revolutionaries’ were the ones who commited to an unprovoked war against Israel in '48 with the stated goal of actual, rather than ‘geogrpahic’ genocide. Studying a bit of history, you’d notice that attacking civilians isn’t ‘effective’ at accomplishing any military goals. You’d also notice Israel has tried time and time and time again to negotiate for peace with the Arabs and the Palstinians, and has consistently had groups like Hamas launch suicide attacks during negotiations.
And if you cared more about truth than ranting, you’d admit that Israel has not been targeting Palestinian civilians. But I guess recognizing that there’s a country named Israel and it’s done some stuff is probably the limit of your horde of facts here.
When Israel’s enemies accept that it’s not going away, and agree to negotiate as Israel has been asking for decades now? But don’t let facts get in the way of truthiness. Trust your gut.
Where does your ignorance stop? It has to stop with reading history instead of making it up.
There is a long list of Israeli concessions, including but not limited to reversing the gains they made in '67 in exchange for other nations negotiating and giving up their stated goal of genocide. But again, if the facts don’t fit your screed, ignore them.
Israel has already offered to do so, and I’m not quite sure how someone who knows nothing about the history of the region can determine who’s ‘in the wrong’. Why, exactly, is the nation that continually tries to make peace ‘in the wrong’? Why is the nation that’s been fighting defensive wars against genocidal enemies since its very birth ‘in the wrong’? Feel free to respond with actual facts, or just make more stuff up.
If you don’t know about history, it’s perfectly valid to invent it.
So, to sum up: a moderate Arab would blame Israel for about 50% of events, but you say that Israel is entirely to blame. What, exactly, does that make you?
Who needs history when it’s happening right now? From CNN: :
From the Washington Post
Apparently, you’re right.
First. I’d like to say that I cann’t answer each and every one of you. It takes me a very long time to write a great debate post. In fact, i’m a notably slow writer. So I could easily spend 4 or 5 hours a day just posting here. I’ve done it in the past but don’t have the time right now.
Now, to answer rock party. If all hezbollah and hamas militants took all the weapons they had in stock. If they also aquired all the weapons they could get their hands on from Iran, Syria or on the black market. If they decided to go and fight the israelis honorably by declaring war and facing off the israeli army. Do you know what would happen? They would be anihilated. They wouldn’t stand the shadow of a chance. They know this and they have decided that, for their righteous cause to succeed. In order to defeat the zionist invaders and reclaim their land and their freedom, that was not the way to go. Nothing unusual about that, Guerillas are born from the same necessities.
They have, at one point, decided that it was ok if tens of thousands, or maybe hundreds of thousands of lives were sacrificed for “the cause”. They have decided that they could kill Israeli military and civilians alike. Down to the innocent children. That’s why they explode in buses and other populated civilian areas. Because they’re softer targets than the military. They have also decided that it was ok if their own civilian people got killed either through israeli retaliation, either through sheer accidents (like the arab couple who lost both their children to a hizbollah rocket attack recently).
They have, furthermore, learned how to use the israeli army’s collateral damage to get sympathy from the rest of the arab world and the aid of a few rich and powerful people. Because, honestly, when an arab muslim turns on the TV and sees the corpses of civilian men, women and children being retrieved from the debris of a building that was hit by an Israeli missile or tank, he does NOT care that there was a sniper on the roof or that Israel got to kill a couple highly placed lieutenants of Hamas or Hizbollah. You are NOT going to convince said person that it was a fair trade or that the the Israeli action was sound and defensible. If the people who died were all his immediate family, he might lose it and agree to go explode himself somewhere. Missiles are expensive. People are cheap. Organizations like Hamas and hizbollah know that and act accordingly.
Bottom line is: everybody is playing to win. Hizbollah is playing dirtier because it is weaker. Period. The weak always play dirty. A mighty tiger does not need venom. A puny little snake does. Asking Hizbollah to not post snipers in populated areas so that “no civilians get hurt” is tantamount to asking the israeli army to stop using explosives because they cause too much collateral damage. Both demands are perfectly reasonable from a certain point of view but they are laughably naive.
I do not sympathize with Hizbollah or Hamas. I do not sympathize with the Israeli government either. It is quite ruthless and has a lot of blood on its hands too.If it were up to me, as long as Jerusalem was administered by a triumvirate of christians, jews and muslims. i’d be ok with disbanding both organisation and teleporting every person on palestine to australia and leave the whole place to Israel. Just so there are no more innocent victims. But it is stupid and illogical to demonize either side. And I see a lot more demonization of the arab side, which displeases me greatly.
Is Hezbollah primarily targeting civilians, or military targets?
Is Israel primarily targeting civilians, or military targets?
Is your obfuscation supposed to serve any point other than distortion?
Were you conducting an argument with even a basic level of intellectual honesty, you’d have recognized that the claim I was responding to was that Hezbollah directs their attacks against civilians (while hiding among their own civilian population) because “it works”. In a military sense, it does not works. It only works in a PR sense with folks like you.
Now, despite your wonderful bit of obfuscation, truly lovely, don’t get me wrong…
the quote of mine you were deliberately ignoring in order to make your empty point was:
Hezbollah’s rocket attacks are directed at Israeli civilians, and are not effective at accomplishing any military goals. They have not stopped the IDF, or caused it to be unable to continue its prosecution of the war.
Israel’s missile attacks are directed at Hezbollah and especially their logistical support, and have indeed rendered Hezbollah virtually unable to resupply. As Hezbollah’s supplies are largely in residential areas, it’s impossible for Israel to destroy them all without killing virtually everybody around Hezbollah, especially since they’re not clearly marked as military hardware if they’re in some guy’s garage. Obviously, the total annihilation of Hezbollah is not the military goal.
But rhetoric trumps reality for certain folk, as I’ve grown to expect.
I certainly wouldn’t expect you to be honest enough to admit that Hezbollah is attacking civilians while Israel is attacking Hezbollah and its logstical network.
It’s much better to ignore the context, facts, and actual issue under discussion in order to attempt to score some rhetorical points.
I’m glad you don’t disapoint by doing something new and addressing the actual point.
You are underestimating the lebanese people. Think about it for a second. What has Israel EVER done for them? Other than the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health? Ok, just kidding.
But seriously, from a lebanese perspective, Israel has been nothing but bad news for Lebanon. So Hizbollah rises and opposes Israel. They have welfare programs and run hospitals and help people. You think the lebanese people are just going to repay hezbollah by “ejecting them”? That is not very realistic. It’s about as futile as me asking the american people to rise against the federal government because of its ridiculous policy on drugs. I may have a point, but it ain’t gonna work.
Except that: Shabaa farms is not Lebanese, it’s Syrian abd Israel did not invade until after Hezbollah began attacking them.
And I’m just curious, what’s this about “Zionist” invaders? Why not just Israeli invaders? (Ignoring that most recently Hezbollah was attacking Israel before Israel invaded in response to Hezbollah’s attacks)
I ask because more often than not, when I see this phrase being used it’s used to suggest some sort of global cabal made up of “Zionist” leaders, whoever they are exactly, and various “crusader” factions helping them.
What is the difference between a “Zionist” invader, and an IDF soldier?
I don’t believe that was Bumps point.
History give context to whats going on and why. So, to answer your question…Who needs history? Well, you do appearently. 
I was wondering when this one would get trotted out. It was definitely defense in depth, but it seems that the final redout is encircled, ehe?
Lets take a quick look at these crimes again, ehe? Not because its going to get through to you this time, but just for drill.
Hezbollah fires rockets deliberately at civilians with the intent to kill them. Check. Hezbollah fires said rockets in the proximity of their own civilian population in the hopes of using them as a screen, or for propaganda purposes when they are hurt or killed…again, deliberately. Check. Hezbollah stores their weapons and munitions in civilian buildings (houses, schools, hospitals, appartment buildings, etc)…again deliberately, and again with the intent to use those civilians and those facilities as both shield and propaganda tool. Check. Finally, Hezbollah uses civilian logistics networks (roads, bridges, etc) to transport military supplies to resupply their forces in the field, to resupply their expended rockets (see point one above), etc…again, deliberately, again to to be provided with both shield and propaganda tool. And also because, frankly, its easier to use the roads than to hump the stuff across country at night when they may be able to do so without attack. Check. Oh yeah…and Hezbollah STARTED this conflict deliberately. Check.
Israel on the other hand, was dragged into this conflict by Hezbollah (this is where that nasty ‘history’ stuff may give that worthless ‘context’ bit, ehe phantom? ). The IDF is deliberately targetting…Hezbollah, their paramilitary forces in the field, their logistics and their rocket vehicles. They are doing this because basically they are under attack and have been so, periodically, for quite some time…and they are at the point where enough is enough. In order to target Hezbollah, both their forces in the field, their logistics and their stores however, this means that unfortunately civilians will be exposed to fire. This is due to the nature of Hezbollah’s tactics described above…simply put it would be impossible to engage Hezbollah on any level without some risk to civilians being hurt or killed. And to not engage is unacceptable to Israel.
Yeah, I can certainly see how “both sides are committing some crimes and doing some Very Nasty Things” is logically obvious to the non-partisan here. :dubious: After all, Hezbollah is deliberately firing on civilians with the intent to kill them, is fighting from within the shield of their own civilians and is deliberately putting them at risk…hell, is INVITING the Israeli’s to come and kill them. While Israel is merely trying to get rid of a paramilitary force that has been periodically engaging them for some time (post occupation) and who started hostilities (again) THIS time.
Yeah…looks pretty even to me on the war crimes front…
-XT
Blah. "Shabaa farms is not Lebanese, it’s Syrian and Israel did not… "
Add that to my vast list of typos.
But, the fact remains, the UN certified that Israel had pulled out of Lebanese territory and that Shabaa farms was not part of Lebanon. So Hezbollah’s claims that it’s justified in ‘reclaiming’ their territory is a smoke screen.
In addition, they couldn’t have been planning on holding civilians hostage in order to defeat the “Zionist” invaders, because they attacked Israel and placed their forces among civilians before Israel retaliated. If someone hasn’t invaded, and you attack them first, then you’re not acting in order to defeat invaders.
Hope that clears things up.
Deadliest rocket barrage of war kills 15 in Israel
Hmm…remind me again. Who’s avoiding civilian casualties again? Facts and figures, please, not prefabricated rhetorical excuses.
Well, I am just using their vocabulary. I , too, have been hearing that phrase used. Zionism is the movement to create a jewish state and since people already happened to live there, it would have to do it by force? So I suppose it has the whole invasion connotation whereas IDF stands for Israeli Defense Forces and has a more positive connotation (Defense).
As far as saying that Hizbollah attacked Israel first. That deserves a thread and a debate of its own. Not that it really matters at this point.
Ahh, I thought you were endorsing it. My apologies.
Sure thing Red. Israel is the one attempting to avoid civilian casualties. I’m (not) surprised you forgot this (again). When Hezbollah hits ANYTHING with their rockets, its pure dumb luck. The fact they hit soldiers instead of civilians (or, as I said, hit anything at all) speaks to chance. Now, unless you want to claim that either A) Hezbollah has some how magically figured out a way to make these extremely inaccurate rockets accurate, or B) Hezbollah has some magic ability to manipulate chance to their advantage, or C) Hezbollah really DOES have the ear of God…
Well, unless you are going to make one of those claims then you are kind of, once again, blowing smoke. But then, I’m sure you realized this already, ehe?
-XT
Moderator’s Note: If your dad wants to post on the board, he needs to register a screenname here. If nothing else, I don’t want to have debates where a screenname has multiple personalities who start arguing with themselves.
BTW Red…clicking on your link gives me a ‘We’re sorry… this story is not currently available’…you may want to get a different link.
-XT
Well, to be fair, it’s not like anybody has pointed out that Hezbollah often makes their bases and places their weapons caches in civilian areas, uses civilian roads to transport weaponry, or wears civilian garb in order to blend in and make precise targeting almost impossible even when they’re not firing rockets from on top of some guy’s home. Nobody has pointed out that the fog of war gets very, very dicey when you can’t even reliably confirm who’s an enemy soldier and who’s a civilian, so mistakes are much more likely to be made. Nobody has pointed out that Israel has been using precision strikes and the best intel it has to hit targets rather than simply carpet bombing Lebanon. Nobody has pointed out that as of Dresden, modern military powers have the ability to reduce cities to ash and rubble and that if Israel was truly targeting civilians, we’d see a body count in the tens, if not hundreds of thousands. Nobody has pointed out that Hezbollah’s rockets are indiscriminate by design and they can’t possibly believe that they’re directing them at Israeli military forces, just “somewhere in that direction, roughly.”
I mean, nobody has pointed those out, right? It’s not a blatantly biased and willfully ignorant screed because, well nobody has pointed out the facts, no newspapes have reported on it, and he honestly means well.
That isn’t just another driveby link with a line of text in support of a position which ignores facts and context? Right?
:smack: Damn. You know, I was going to mention all that stuff too…
Yeah, this seems to be the main line of defense. I think that the feeling is that if they just keep repeating the mantra, and providing the raw casualty statistics, that eventually they will just win the debate by having driven us all nuts with the sheer repetation. Sort of a brute force aproach to debating…
As I said in another thread, its sort of like attempting to kill flies with a hammer. I will make a modification to that analogy…they seem to be undead flies who appearently can’t be killed (except maybe by putting tiny little stakes through their obfuscatory little hearts!). They just keep coming back to life to buzz around yet again…
-XT
-XT