# A moral dilemma **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 26, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136 "2022-12-26T19:43:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/21 "2022-12-26T22:35:45Z")
This OP falls right into my wheelhouse. Hannibal Lecter was characterizing a serial killer in the following scene, but could well have been describing an avid gardener: “He covets. That is his nature. And how do we begin to covet, Clarice?..We begin by coveting what we see every day.” I confess that on occasion I have collected seeds from public plantings (i.e. outside shops or restaurants, not in arboreta) where no one could possibly mind (I have a crop of young crepe myrtles growing under lights, raised from seed of a crepe with gorgeous fall foliage I found at the edge of the parking lot of an auto parts supply store). Maybe once I’ve snipped a cutting in such circumstances without getting permission first. I’ve offered to pay for cuttings; the response has varied from contemptuous refusal to someone telling me to go ahead for free. Then there’s the ethical dilemma of desirable plants growing in a wild location slated for development. It’s probably better to ask permission for salvaging, say, a terrestrial orchid or unusual fern than to sneak onto the property and dig it up, but there’s always the likelihood that as in the case of the OP, it’ll be difficult or impossible to get through to “corporate” to get permission. I’d definitely draw the line at taking seeds or cuttings (not to mention entire plants) from nurseries or public/private gardens, which is theft no matter how you slice it. Most gardeners, if respectfully approached, would be amenable to giving you seeds, cuttings, or even a division of a plant you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Jaycat.again](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat.again/32/11525_2.png) [@Jaycat.again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaycat.again)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/22 "2022-12-26T23:13:54Z")
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s bush. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/23 "2022-12-26T23:25:10Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This OP falls right into my wheelhouse. Hannibal Lecter was characterizing a serial killer… Hmm…should we be worried? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/24 "2022-12-26T23:54:16Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Would that hold up in a court of law? Interesting question. It should, in my opinion – “Silence gives consent.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/25 "2022-12-26T23:59:43Z")
So you’re OK if somebody takes and keeps your car after your spam filter eats his emailed request to steal it? Silence giving consent essentially means you (read as “everyone”) have to actively defend against any and all random demands coming from any quarter. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/26 "2022-12-27T00:03:13Z")
\<\< deleted by poster \>\> ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/27 "2022-12-27T00:06:59Z")
In a similar vein, in San Jose I would use this street in an industrial area and one point it crossed a railroad track that fifty feet later dead-ended at a concrete wall that was the base for a freeway. The crossing was protected by a wigwag signal in pretty good shape. I’d always wanted one but back then, one in operating condition was $5,000. I fantasized a midnight run with a flatbed trailer and a large wrench for unscrewing the nuts holding down the base but I never did. Then one day when I passed by, the signal was lying on the ground in pieces, apparently struck by a truck. [![](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/G3RWBF/a-wig-wag-railroad-crossing-warning-device-and-sign-post-G3RWBF.jpg) ](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/G3RWBF/a-wig-wag-railroad-crossing-warning-device-and-sign-post-G3RWBF.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/28 "2022-12-27T00:12:49Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > So you’re OK if somebody takes and keeps your car after your spam filter eats his emailed request to steal it? > > Silence giving consent essentially means you (read as “everyone”) have to actively defend against any and all random demands coming from any quarter. If I were too stupid to check my spam folder on a regular basis, the outcome would 100% be my fault. But you don’t have to “actively defend” so much as “take reasonable steps.” Taking the original example, if I call a company on a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, during normal business hours, during a week when there is no major holiday (i.e., most of the time), it is entirely reasonable to expect a reply within 48 hours. And if you receive such a request regarding something that you find valuable, you must assuredly **should** take reasonable steps to make your feelings known. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/29 "2022-12-27T00:33:26Z")
An English garden writer, the late Christopher Lloyd, had a problem with visitors to his garden poaching labels and sometimes (literally) pinching plants to sneak out propagation material. He referred to the latter, rather disrespectfully, as “Irish cuttings”. The term has found its way into our family lexicon, though never spoken in public. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/30 "2022-12-27T00:37:44Z")
Which is why I suggested doing it during their rush. You didn’t say if it was a sit down place or a drive-thru, but either way, ask if you can take a cutting while giving your order. > [@dolphinboy](#): > > Stealing is morally wrong, no matter who you justify it in your mind. I really doubt that taking a cutting from a plant is stealing because the plant will recover and just grow another twigs where the cutting was taken. All plants are unique. A cutting from the Azalea the OP lusted after will be different than buying a different one somewhere else. Even taking a cutting from a mature Azalea in a different part of town will give different results. These results won’t usually make a difference to the casual gardener, but for someone who has a really finicky botanical hobby to begin with, the difference will be very noticeable. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Would anyone fuss about taking a cutting from a large bush? The hobbyist taking the cutting probably wouldn’t be noticed because they would be it in a business like fashion, acting like they should be there and will be doing it early in the morning or late in the evening depending on the plant. I’ve gotten cuttings from businesses and government buildings by asking one of the landscapers for them. I’ve gotten cuttings from yards by asking the owner for them. Most folks who garden do it because they enjoy it and everyone wants to share their hobby. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/31 "2022-12-27T01:14:11Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > If I were too stupid to check my spam folder on a regular basis, the outcome would 100% be my fault. You’re kidding-- if I don’t check my spam folder, and someone had requested to adopt my son, and then, they show up at his school to pick him up, the school should release him to them? Because I ignored their emails? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/32 "2022-12-27T01:30:25Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > If I were too stupid to check my spam folder on a regular basis, the outcome would 100% be my fault. I get 15-20 spam emails a day on my personal account. You’re saying I should be scrutinizing every single one in case somebody is asking whether they can take my car, because silence implies consent? What if a girl is at a bar and refuses to engage with a creep, and he assaults her? Does silence give consent there? What if I get in a car wreck two states away and somebody posts a notice on the front door of my house asking if they can bulldoze it? I don’t see it because I’m in the hospital and didn’t think to ask a friend to check for notices on the front door. Silence = consent? > [@Bootb](#): > > And if you receive such a request regarding something that you find valuable, you must assuredly **should** take reasonable steps to make your feelings known. Thank god that’s not how any laws work anywhere. If I own something, I don’t **have** to say “no, you may not take my property away from me” every time somebody asks. What a world that would be. “Officer, that man stole my car.” “Well, did he ask nicely?” “Yeah, he said ‘can I please take your car and use it in a demolition derby,’ but I didn’t engage with him because he’s obviously a lunatic.” “Oooh, sorry fellah. He asked nicely and you didn’t tell him no. That means it’s his car.” “You’re kidding me. Yeah? What do **you** want, other person?” “Hi hello there, I am a lawyer for the lunatic on the street corner. He asked you for both your kidneys last week and you didn’t respond. You’re being served as those kidneys are now his property.” ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/33 "2022-12-27T01:52:21Z")
What if there were a case where a person felt a dog was being abused even though it did not meet the legal standard for abuse. So, she stole the dog, and it became a happy member of her family. 2 years later she was arrested for theft. If she could successfully redefine abuse to the judge’s satisfaction, could she be found innocent? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/34 "2022-12-27T02:43:57Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > If she could successfully redefine abuse to the judge’s satisfaction, could she be found innocent? No. She stole the dog. The judge has to apply the law and not personal judgement. The proper route would be to notify some animal welfare agency and let them deal with it. It is never up to an individual to take the law into their own hands as a legal matter. As an ethical matter…depends. But the law and ethics don’t always meet. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/35 "2022-12-27T04:28:51Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > You’re kidding-- if I don’t check my spam folder, and someone had requested to adopt my son, and then, they show up at his school to pick him up, the school should release him to them? Because I ignored their emails? Adoption is a legal process; there is more to it than simply asking. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I get 15-20 spam emails a day on my personal account. You’re saying I should be scrutinizing every single one in case somebody is asking whether they can take my car, because silence implies consent? > > What if a girl is at a bar and refuses to engage with a creep, and he assaults her? Does silence give consent there? > > What if I get in a car wreck two states away and somebody posts a notice on the front door of my house asking if they can bulldoze it? I don’t see it because I’m in the hospital and didn’t think to ask a friend to check for notices on the front door. Silence = consent? Again, none of your examples are in any way reasonable. I do not expect you to “scrutinize” your spam folder; I do, however, expect you to once or twice a week skim your spam folder to see if anything got mis-classified. You see, it has been well-known for literally decades that spam filters do not always work as designed; **therefore** , a brief check on a regular basis is entirely reasonable. There is a legal concept known as the “reasonable person standard.” I very strongly suggest that anybody else who wishes to engage me on this subject apply this standard, instead of throwing up inane, idiotic, ludicrous examples that are the opposite of what I’ve been talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/36 "2022-12-27T04:33:42Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > Again, none of your examples are in any way reasonable. “Silence implies consent” is not in any way reasonable, so I’m not sure where to draw the line. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/37 "2022-12-27T04:52:13Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > sex the guppies Hey, I could sex up those guppies sir, if you just gave me the go-ahead. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/38 "2022-12-27T11:48:20Z")
OP should have bought a similar shrub, same type, similar size. Dressed up as a maintenance man, ( be there first thing before most people arrive), and proceeded to switch the two. Any inquiries, simply respond, just doing your job, talk to management, or, someone spotted a potential disease and it’s being switched out before in infects the other plants. No one would have raised an eyebrow, they would not be diminished in any way. Everybody is happy! (Yes, technically still theft adjacent, but I highly doubt anyone would really care. Or actually notice. ) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/39 "2022-12-27T12:25:02Z")
I guess I’m confused because I would have just offered somebody money. This is precisely the sort of situation for which money was invented… ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/40 "2022-12-27T12:41:32Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > Interesting question. It should, in my opinion – “Silence gives consent.” It’s not an interesting question and silence does not give consent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136.md?page=3)