# A moral dilemma **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 26, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136 "2022-12-26T19:43:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TRC4941](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trc4941/32/6792_2.png) [@TRC4941](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TRC4941)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/41 "2022-12-27T15:46:19Z")
> [@Tarataratara](#): > > The chapter is “Gallons of Guppies,” from I believe the first Henry Huggins book. I’m glad to know another lover of Beverly Cleary’s books. Another lover of those books! Those books were a huge part of my childhood. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/42 "2022-12-27T16:04:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > What if I get in a car wreck two states away and somebody posts a notice on the front door of my house asking if they can bulldoze it? Is it in a disused basement water closet behind a sign that says “beware of lepard”? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/43 "2022-12-27T16:33:30Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > I really doubt that taking a cutting from a plant is stealing because the plant will recover and just grow another twigs where the cutting was taken. Actually, it’s complicated. [There are plants that are patented, and taking a cutting is against the law.](https://empressofdirt.net/plant-patents/) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/44 "2022-12-27T17:23:43Z")
I agree that silence usually does not imply consent, especially when something like a baby, a house or a car is at stake. However, for a low-stakes matter such as this, where (a) **HBDC** has diligently tried to get the business’s consent, (b) the business is apparently just ignoring him and (c) no harm will be done to its interests if he takes a cutting, it is a reasonable approach. Give the business more than 48 hours to respond, if that seems better to you, but if it ever went to litigation, I think **HBDC** would be on pretty solid ground. ETA: Kudos for the _Hitchhikers_ reference, **Chronos**. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/45 "2022-12-27T18:43:58Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I guess I’m confused because I would have just offered somebody money. This is precisely the sort of situation for which money was invented… The OP tried that. The manager said “It’s above my pay grade to approve that.” and the OP’s attempts to contact the restaurant chain’s corporate offices were ignored. For that matter, it’s possible the plants belonged to the landowner, not the restaurant company. Whether the restaurant chain was leasing just the building or had a ground lease we don’t know. Plus of course there may be a property management company between the restaurant lease and the actual landowner. I’d be a bit surprised to find this with _out_door landscaping, but lots of _in_door landscaping / plant decor is itself leased from indoor landscaping providers. They bring in the pots, the plants, etc., then feed, water, tend, and replace them all for a fixed monthly charge. In these situations neither the building management nor the tenant management has the right to sell one of the plants. Bottom line: snagging a plant in front of Bob’s Diner would be easy: Ask Bob behind the counter, agree on $20, hand over a Jackson, grab your trowel, & we’re done. Everything in Corporate America is harder. As you well know. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/46 "2022-12-27T18:57:24Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > > [@JaneDoe42](#): > > > > I really doubt that taking a cutting from a plant is stealing because the plant will recover and just grow another twigs where the cutting was taken. > > Actually, it’s complicated. [There are plants that are patented, and taking a cutting is against the law.](https://empressofdirt.net/plant-patents/) This is meant to discourage others in the industry from propagating and selling hybrids/cultivars. Patent enforcement could conceivably be applied to home gardeners selling protected plants on venues like eBay or at garden club sales, but I haven’t heard of this happening. The odds of the Plant Police showing up at your door to demand sales receipts for the six plants of “COLOR CODED® 'One in a Melon’” Echinacea\* you have growing in the back yard are approximately zero. Taking a cutting from someone else’s plant without permission while thinking “it’ll just grow back, no harm done” is really a cop-out. It’ll take time for growth to fill back in, potentially compromising the plant’s appearance for awhile, and it could forever look lopsided. 😬 \*an actual patented plant. ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/47 "2022-12-27T19:10:02Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > wigwag signal I’ve often wondered what they were called ! I’ve been looking for a sample of the sound for a tune i was working on. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/48 "2022-12-27T19:15:35Z")
If you can pick the audio off of a YouTube here’s 30 seconds of a guy showing off the one he restored. I stumbled across it yesterday when I was looking for an image. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/rVqZmJuH22U/hqdefault.jpg "The Wig-Wag When We Got It Working (2006)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVqZmJuH22U) ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/49 "2022-12-27T19:18:38Z")
That’ll do nicely ! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/50 "2022-12-27T19:31:09Z")
You’re welcome. Kind of a slow beat. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/51 "2022-12-27T19:32:34Z")
What’s interesting to me is the mechanical noise that thing makes. It sounds like it’s operated by some sort of pawl mechanism. I’d have expected something like an eccentric shaft which should be much more durable. All that trackside stuff is designed to last for years out in the elements with negligible maintenance. I went to that vid’s page on YouTube, hoping he had more vids of other stages of his restoration project so I could see the guts in action. But clicking on his name pulls up a page of all his vids. On which page this vid is not included. Color me baffled by the mysterious ways of YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/52 "2022-12-27T19:34:33Z")
I’m assuming Bootb is a very ‘straight-man’ jokester. I mean, if he isn’t…wow. If he is, my respect for keeping a straight face 🙂 That being said…for very low-stakes things like this (and I mean very low stakes)…I might be tempted to do something like this. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/53 "2022-12-27T19:55:50Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I’d have expected something like an eccentric shaft which should be much more durable. [Here](https://davemargulius.com/my-brief-wig-wag-love-affair/) is his blog entry. If you scroll down a ways, you can see the Magnetic Signal Co. catalog with an interior view of the mechanism. As you might guess from the company’s name, the movement is made by pulsed electromagnets attracting a slug at the top of the swing arm. > **[Wigwag (railroad)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigwag_(railroad))** > > Wigwag is a nickname for a type of railroad grade crossing signal once common in North America, referring to its pendulum-like motion that signaled a train's approach. The device is generally credited to Albert Hunt, a mechanical engineer at Southern California's Pacific Electric (PE) interurban streetcar railroad, who invented it in 1909 for safer railroad grade crossings. The term should not be confused with its usage in Britain, where "wigwag" generally refers to alternate flashing lights, s... ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/54 "2022-12-27T21:03:07Z")
Thanks for the reference. When I was a kid in SoCal those were still current RR practice and I was fascinated by those things. _Much_ cooler than crossing gates or the stanchions with two alternating flashing big red signal lights in use today. I’m a little confused about the big clunking noises versus the motor arrangement as shown in the blog post. Maybe the clunking is the resetting of the hammer that whacks the bell. Oh well. Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/55 "2022-12-27T21:10:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The OP tried that. The manager said “It’s above my pay grade to approve that.” and the OP’s attempts to contact the restaurant chain’s corporate offices were ignored. Ahh, I missed that. Well, this isn’t a moral dilemma at all. You just don’t take them, don’t come up with rationalizations to take them, and… if that fails… you don’t ask people over the internet to come up with rationalizations. The OP was right in their initial (non) action. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/56 "2022-12-27T21:51:30Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > I do not expect you to “scrutinize” your spam folder; I do, however, expect you to once or twice a week skim your spam folder to see if anything got mis-classified. You see, it has been well-known for literally decades that spam filters do not always work as designed; **therefore** , a brief check on a regular basis is entirely reasonable. I get vast volumes of spam, my spam filter is very effective at isolating it, but I have the filter for the precise purpose of eliminating the task of sifting through a mountain of spam in case something legitimate is in there. As, I believe, a reasonable person, I do not consider it my obligation to check if there’s something in there from someone who wants to take an item of my property and considers my silence as implied consent. If you want my consent to deprive me of an item of my property, you must escalate the conversation until you have obtained it explicitly. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/57 "2022-12-27T22:22:34Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > There is a legal concept known as the “reasonable person standard.” I very strongly suggest that anybody else who wishes to engage me on this subject apply this standard, instead of throwing up inane, idiotic, ludicrous examples that are the opposite of what I’ve been talking about. If you send me an email once a week, attach a read-receipt to it and I affirm each and every single time that I’ve received it, but I STILL do not respond to your request to access my property and cut off pieces of my landscaping, my silence in absolutely no way gives you consent to do so. There is no reasonable alternative to this, despite your pleadings. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/58 "2022-12-27T23:10:13Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Well, this isn’t a moral dilemma at all. You just don’t take them, don’t come up with rationalizations to take them, and… if that fails… you don’t ask people over the internet to come up with rationalizations. > > The OP was right in their initial (non) action. 🙂 Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/59 "2022-12-28T00:11:44Z")
Oh boy. A Christmas gift 2 days ago. Needs a back story. I have bad hearing caused by tinnitus. It’s pretty bad, I use hearing aids and for work meeting on the computer, head phones with a microphone. They work fine. They are pretty basic wireless headphones. Say $60. Now my wife and I are not swimming in money, but are doing quite well. My Wife bought me a pair of $1000 head phones for Christmas. I ummm… My problem with hearing is my tinnitus. I can’t tell the difference between the $60 head phones and the $1000 ones. But she was excited to give them to me. I just couldn’t tell her that it wouldn’t matter. My tinnitus changes frequencies in both ears. Up and down constantly. And I’m not nor could every be an audiophile that could appreciate these. It’s a very, very thoughtful gift. I asked if I could at least pay for half of them (our money is mostly separate, and I make more). Money has never been any kind of issue between us. It’s in separate accounts, but if need be, We just share, no questions asked. Don’t get me wrong, they are very nice. I’ll use them. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136/60 "2022-12-28T00:14:18Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > they are very nice. I’ll use them. Just use them and think of _that_ as a gift to her (a priceless one, BTW). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-moral-dilemma/977136.md?page=4)