# A movie that might change your life, etc., Part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2001, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106 "2001-02-19T20:12:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/101 "2001-02-24T17:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\* > 1957 showed a higher teen **birth** rate in the U.S. than 1983. This does not necessarily mean that 1957 had a higher teen **pregnancy** rate in the U.S. than 1983. Recall that in 1957, abortion was largely illegal and therefore very difficult to obtain. There could have been just as many, if not more, teen pregnancies in 1983 than in 1957, if there were more teen abortions. \*\* I think this is a complicated issue. Does the teen birth rate reflect teens who go away for a while and come back with a new sibling? And the usual feminist claim is that the abortion rate is more or less unchanged since Roe v. Wade (although many, many fewer women _die_ from abortions, now that it’s safe and legal.) Plus, FoG probably feels that petting and oral sex are morally equivalent to vaginal intercourse- what were the rates for that? While we’re at it, FoG, what do you think of Bush’s plan to deprive women in the Third World of condoms? The agencies in question are claiming that he’s going to send the abortion and infanticide rate sky-high, and you don’t have to be Einstein to know that they’re right. So do you support Bush’s action? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/102 "2001-02-25T07:07:13Z")
George W. Bush wants to put pressure on foreign nations to restrict access to **condoms**? Really? Good God. I knew he wanted to withdraw American financial support for international health agencies that offered **abortion** services, but condoms?! When did he make **this** barbaric announcement? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/103 "2001-02-25T07:16:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*George W. Bush wants to put pressure on foreign nations to restrict access to **condoms**? Really? Good God. I knew he wanted to withdraw American financial support for international health agencies that offered **abortion** services, but condoms?! When did he make **this** barbaric announcement? \*\* That’s actually not the stated purpose of his aid cuts. But it will be the practical effect. Foreign family planning services that receive US aid have been prohibited from directly using that aid money to provide abortion services since the Reagan administration. What the US aid did do was allow them to use their limited resources to provide contraception counseling. Without the US aid, they are more than likely going to go under, prompting more abortions and infanticides as the populations being served stop receiving that contraception counseling. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/104 "2001-03-06T13:42:26Z")
There’s been some discussion on this thread and its predecessor about whether the LB books are claimed to be prophecy. The answer is, the LB folks (and I’m talking about the people who run the official LB website here) clearly don’t discourage that view; in fact, they seem to regard it as a Good Thing. I got the following email a day or so ago from [leftbehind.com](http://leftbehind.com): > [@](#): > > Dear (RT), > > With racing drivers and fans across the country searching for answers to the recent NASCAR tragedies, an incredible opportunity has surfaced to share the gospel to the racing world through the Left Behind Series. > > This coming Sunday, March 4, at 12 noon EST, racing fans and millions of viewers on ESPN will see “READ THE FUTURE” and “[leftbehind.com](http://leftbehind.com)” emblazoned on all sides of NASCAR driver Randy MacDonald’s No. 72 Chevrolet at the Craftsman Truck Series Florida Dodge Dealers 400K race. > > An avid fan of the Left Behind Series, Randy believes that the message of the Series has a direct application to his fellow drivers who cruise around the track at speeds in excess of 150 miles an hour. > > Click here to find out more at [leftbehind.com](http://leftbehind.com). Emphasis in original. If it’s fiction, it isn’t reading the future. If it’s touted as reading the future, it’s being touted as prophecy, or something pretty close. If some yokel on the NASCAR circuit puts that on his car, that’s not their fault. When they brag about it to the entire world, it becomes their message. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/105 "2001-03-06T14:12:32Z")
> [@](#): > > For in the last days there shall rise up false prophets… A marketing scheme for promoting a variety of Christian thought, I could buy. This is at least as heretical as Dr. Spong’s views, albeit from a different perspective. When I got the e-mail, I told them to eliminate me from their mailings, since I had been banned from their board _before making a single post_. I should have swallowed my anger and read it with the careful perspective that **RTFirefly** clearly did. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/106 "2001-03-06T16:21:06Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by RTFirefly, as a third party quote_ > > With racing drivers and fans across the country searching for answers to the recent NASCAR tragedies, an incredible opportunity has surfaced to share the gospel to the racing world through the Left Behind Series. Nevermind if they’re touting their books as prophetic, but am I the only one find the e-mail rather tasteless? People are emotionally hurting from losing their hero, let’s get in there with our propaganda! Of course, I’m hardly surprised. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/107 "2001-03-06T16:50:07Z")
How did that happen, **Polycarp**? ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/108 "2001-03-06T17:12:12Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* \*\* > [@](#): > > …since I had been banned from their board _before making a single post_. \*\* Man! Talk about insular. That they would ban you from entering into theological discussions merely because you disagree with them reveals a mindset that disgusts me. Disallowing discussion and dissension on a _message board_? It’s especially disgusting that they would ban a poster that is as well-behaved as you are preemptively, merely because you have a different outlook. It seems to me that if they get rid of any dissenting viewpoints then their board will be nothing more than a mutual masturbation society, getting their mental rocks off on how right they all are. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/109 "2001-03-06T17:24:07Z")
> [@](#): > > **Ptahlis:** It seems to me that if they get rid of any dissenting viewpoints then their board will be nothing more than a mutual masturbation society, getting their mental rocks off on how right they all are. Is that a concise and cogent summary of these people’s worldview, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/110 "2001-03-06T17:24:43Z")
No reason was ever given. Registration went through fine, and I got the auto-e-mail confirmation. But when I tried to post a couple of days later, I got the message that “your membership has been terminated.” What Ptahlis says is purely hypothetical as an explanation, thought it’s the one I think is accurate. I didn’t try to register until after the Great New Years Eve Massacreee here, and the Administrator over there was quite well aware of who I was from my involvement here. But the reason, whatever it be, is not evident, unless we assume it from that background. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/111 "2001-03-06T20:14:12Z")
I too was a bit put off by the timing and tenor of the NASCAR email. I thought it was tacky and tasteless, but didn’t even think about the message they were supporting. 'Course, I also find it interesting that they think they can get a message out by emblazoning it on the side of a racing truck driven by a perennial also-ran. It doesn’t look promising to me, it just looks sad. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/112 "2001-03-06T21:43:00Z")
RTFirefly quoted an e-mail from [leftbehind.com](http://leftbehind.com): > [@](#): > > An avid fan of the Left Behind Series, Randy believes that the message of the Series has a direct application to his fellow drivers who cruise around the track at speeds in excess of 150 miles an hour. What, Randy’s worried that those bumper stickers that say “In case of rapture this car will be unmanned” will all come true and there will be out-of-control driverless racecars careening around the track smashing into non-Christians? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/113 "2001-03-06T23:19:23Z")
Yeah, I know teen birth rates and pregnancy rates are different things…this is one of my favorite examples of how to lie with statistics. But we have very fuzzy stats on teen pregnancy rates, birth rates, abortion rates, etc. Even in the present, check out Alan Gutmacher for the problems with putting together abortion stats…not very easy and probably not accurate. Another problem with these stats (i.e. teen pregnancy), in addition to Roe v. Wade, there is Griswold v. Connecticutt and (darn, can’t find reference book and have to get kids from daycare), the one giving unmarried people the right to birth control. However, we do know from the stats I cited that teens were having sex in the 1950s (contrary to some peoples beliefs), in fairly large numbers and that they were not all married while doing it. (Unless you are willing to buy that there were hordes of 16 year old girls using the turkey baster method of conception). The only way to KNOW what teen sexuality is like is to ask teens and get truthful answers. The first we’ve been doing for years. Eventually, a miracle will occur and we will get teens to tell the truth on surveys regarding their sex lives. I don’t know if California has fixed this yet, but in the 1980s they figured their illegitamcy stats on whether mom and dad had the same last name on the birth certificate. Anyone see any problems with that? ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/114 "2001-03-07T01:02:28Z")
> [@](#): > > The answer is, the LB folks (and I’m talking about the people who run the official LB website here) clearly don’t discourage that view; in fact, they seem to regard it as a Good Thing. I don’t think you could find a single fan of the Left Behind series that would say they believe the series is “prophesy” in any way shape or form. The writers and promoters wouldn’t either. Here is the quote you referred to: > [@](#): > > This coming Sunday, March 4, at 12 noon EST, racing fans and millions of viewers on ESPN will see “READ THE FUTURE” and “[leftbehind.com](http://leftbehind.com)” … You said: > [@](#): > > If it’s fiction, it isn’t reading the future. If it’s touted as reading the future, it’s being touted as prophecy, or something pretty close. I disagree. This is akin to a Christian reading LB and saying, “And just think, this could happen any day now!” They don’t mean, “Just think, Hattie Durham is going to tell Rayford Steele people are missing”, et al. It just means this is a _fiction_ series _BASED_ on prophesy that is going to actually happen someday. It’s like a historical fiction novel, only the history in the story is _future_ history, not past history. It’s the prophesy the fiction is _based_ on that people refer to when they say things like that. I see “Read the Future” and that’s entirely what I get from it … a fictionalized account of very real events that will happen one day. Polycarp: > [@](#): > > When I got the e-mail, I told them to eliminate me from their mailings, since I had been banned from their board before making a single post. If I had to guess, I’d say this happened for one of two reasons: 1. The famous New Years Eve massacre you referred to. I seem to recall a blanket ban on anyone registered here due to the chaos, so that might have stayed in place and no one ever removed it. 2. A glitch. Seriously. There have been huge problems on the LB board in the past 6 - 8 months. You aren’t the only one who has had similar problems The Admin has been getting better but it still isn’t like it used to be. So don’t worry, it isn’t the Grand Right Wing Conspiracy ;). > [@](#): > > Nevermind if they’re touting their books as prophetic, but am I the only one find the e-mail rather tasteless? People are emotionally hurting from losing their hero, let’s get in there with our propaganda! Of course, I’m hardly surprised. That’s a rather “glass is half empty” view. You are assuming motives here in a huge way. I can say that I’m excited about it. You’ve got to realize, most of the people who get this email are born again believers who will instinctively understand what this means. When people go through horrible tragedy, sometimes they are more open to receive God’s love and mercy than at any other time. This is an opportunity to possibly reach some of those people. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/115 "2001-03-07T01:20:57Z")
According to [NASCAR](http://www.nascar.com/RACE/truck/2/2001/race_results.html), Randy McDonald did not in fact race in the Florida Dodge Dealers 400 this past Sunday. According to the series standings, he’s in 35th place after _one_ start (of two races), so maybe he didn’t qualify. Or… did he disappear? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/116 "2001-03-07T01:38:25Z")
Skulking around the NASCAR site some more, it appears that Rob Morgan was slated to run in the MacDonald Racing car and that Randy MacDonald’s health appeared to be in some question. Morgan finished the race 27th, but in a Ford (whereas MacDonald runs a Chevy). So I don’t know what the heck happened. At any rate, all the best to the MacDonalds. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/117 "2001-03-07T01:46:20Z")
FriendofGod wrote: > [@](#): > > It just means this is a _fiction_ series _BASED_ on prophesy that is going to actually happen someday. By the way, FriendofGod, I missed some parts of this thread. Could you tell me again who it was (and where I could look it up) that came along **before** John Darby and yet espoused the notion of a Rapture that happens **right** before the Tribulation events in the Book of Revelation, **and** claimed there were Scriptural passages to back it up? ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/118 "2001-03-07T02:07:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Could you tell me again who it was (and where I could look it up) that came along before John Darby and yet espoused the notion of a Rapture that happens right before the Tribulation events in the Book of Revelation, and claimed there were Scriptural passages to back it up? Hey tracer. I never actually quoted from the book passage. The following comes from “Are We Living in the End Times” by Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins. It’s a Bible study book companion to the Left Behind series. These are several quotes from pages 112-115. > [@](#): > > IS THE PRE-TRIB VIEW A RECENT THEORY? > > For several years opponents of the pre-Trib position have argued that it was invented by John Darby in the mid-1800s and was never mentioned before that. Quite simply, this argument is false - a fact that cost one post-Trib writer a bundle of cash. This author offered five hundred dollars to anyone who could prove that the pre-Trib Rapture theory was known before John Darby began to popularized it in the 1840s. When it was discovered that the Reverend Morgan Edwards saw it back in 1742, the writer had to pay off his costly challenge. He has since had to admit his error and withdraw his offer. > > The Reverend Morgan Edwards was a Baptist pastor in Philadelphia who described a pre-Trib return of Christ for His church in his 1788 book _Millennium, Last Days Novelties_. Although he only saw a three-and-a-half year Tribulation, he definately saw the Rapture occur before that Tribulation. What is even more interesting is that he claimed he had preached and written the same thing as early as 1742. > … > > Grant Jeffrey, a current prophesy scholar and speaker, has done extensive research into the writings of many prophesy teachers prior to the eighteenth century … Jeffrey’s most important contribution was his electrifying discovery of a statement in an apocolyptic sermon from the fourth century. Designated Pseudo-Ephraim, there is some question as to whether it was really written by Ephraim of Nisibis, (A.D. 306-373), a prolific Syrian church father. Some prefer a later date for this homily, called “Sermon on the End of the World”, and suggest it may not have been written until A.D. 565-627. For our purpose, the real date is immaterial, for allowing its composition as late as the seventh century proves that even at this early date (eleven hundred years before John Darby), some Christians saw the Rapture occurring _before_ the Tribulation. In challenging Christians to holy living (always a result of Rapture teaching), the ancient author wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? … _All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord_, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. > > There can be no doubt that this fourth- (or at the latest, seventh-) century Bible scholar saw the saints gathered _before_ the Tribulation … Considering that less than 10 percent of ancient Christian documents have been preserved, we have no doubt that there must have been other Bible students who also discovered the teaching of the Blessed Hope. Interesting stuff! I can’t say I’m a believer in the Pre-trib rapture, but this book made some strong arguments and knocked down some false beliefs of mine. I would say I am about 50/50 now between Pre and Post Trib, as opposed to before when I leaned toward Post Trib. By the way, the notes for the quote above refer to the book _Apocalypse_ by Grant Jeffrey, 1992. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/119 "2001-03-07T03:08:18Z")
**FriendofGod** said: > [@](#): > > So don’t worry, it isn’t the Grand Right Wing Conspiracy I know that; VastRightWingConspiracy is a Calvinist with a taste for Pizza and IBC, who posts some interesting ideas from time to time! 😛 But I realize LBMB has some serious problems going on, and that’s why the “measured” post above avoiding buying into Ptahlis’s idea that they didn’t want me because of my ideas. Though there may be something to that, given that my registration “took” and was not refused but I was then banned before posting. Hey, a thought: either here in GD or over in the Pizza place, start a thread on the sequence of events you understand to be what’s prophesied for the Last Days, with Bible quotes. I for one would be interested, and while I keep hearing Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib and all the other jargon associated with it, it just so happens that I’m not fully cognizant of what’s supposed to precede and follow what. And I’d venture to guess that there are a bunch of people (JAB for one, I’d bet) who are skeptical but curious about the full story in sequence, and would not mind arguing out what the meaning of the passages might be. Sound worthwhile? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106/120 "2001-03-07T03:51:46Z")
Just offering my opinion. I’ve just finished reading the first book, _Left Behind_. I’ll admit to a biasis before I start, but I did truly try to get ‘into’ this book. Overall, I found this to be a very **average** book. The story and plot are nothing spectacular. The characters seem more cookie-cutter-ish; they really have no depth, they’re just acting roles in a plot that moves along at a slow pace to a predictable ending. Since we all know the plot, there are no surprises, nothing to keep the interest of the reader. We know why the people disappeared, we know who the Anti-Christ is and we know what will eventually happen. The authors have done nothing to make us want to keep reading or engage us; they’re only writing for a select audience who are thrilled to have their life-dream fulfilled. I could see this book re-written to have plenty of twists and turns to keep us guessing on what will happen next and how, but they (the authors) never considered this. I begin to wonder if the Rapture did actually happen to the authors of this book whilst at the typewriter, their notes arrayed before them. _POOF_ suddenly they’re gone leaving nothing but their clothes. Their agents show up, looking for them and find nothing; realizing they need to meet a deadline the agents hire 3rd rate hack-writers to fill in for the authors, using their notes. That’s the book; _Left Behind_. Honestly, I’m thinking of renting the video and see how it translates to the screen; but I’m not holding my breath for some epiphany to happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life-etc-part-2/55106.md?page=7)