# A Movie That Might Change Your Life . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822 "2001-02-02T04:11:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/181 "2001-02-12T06:12:24Z")
Ben, I add my own applause to your caustic, but not very inaccurate take on how too many of the most vocal Fundies are. However, in the interest of fairness, I want to ask you about this tidbit in particular: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > > **My mom told me an interesting story this morning- she was at a church group in which a woman was talking about her missionary activity. She converted a six year old girl whose father said that he’d kill her if she went to church. The girl went anyway, and her father beat her to death. The girl’s last words on her hospital bed were, “Daddy, I forgive you.” The woman was ecstatic, declaring excitedly that she had “created a martyr!” So you see, pedophiles aren’t the only ones who abuse children in the pursuit of their fantasies.** Now, I love that story, because even if it’s not true, it shows quite perfectly the attitude these people would have. That said, it reeks of Urban Legend and I wonder if maybe you have a cite for it? If not, it takes nothing away from the point of it to me personally, but I know that I have taken on Christian ULs here and I want to be fair. Tanxz… * * * Yer pal, [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) \*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Ten months, three days, 3 hours, 11 minutes and 41 seconds. 12365 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,545.87. Extra life saved: 6 weeks, 22 hours, 25 minutes. See my Sig File FAQ: [http://pages.prodigy.net/briank.o/SigFAQ.htm](http://pages.prodigy.net/briank.o/SigFAQ.htm) \* ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/182 "2001-02-12T14:18:24Z")
Satan, I agree that it looks like a UL, and I immediately assumed it was one. I don’t think Ben was necessarily saying it was true, but an indication of the way these people “think.” And, FoG, as if in a message from Heaven, I happened to watch _The Practice_ last night, where they dealt with several religious folks. One of the law partners had been seriously injured in a bombing. The doctors were about to do surgery when her mother rushed in and told them they could not give her blood, because she’s a Jehovah’s Witness. Much of the rest of the show dealt with a court battle between the senior partner – who wanted the woman to get blood – and the mother. The show did a good job of showing the religious beliefs of the Witnesses, IMO (even though I strongly disagree with them) and didn’t make anybody’s religion look bad. Indeed, the show ended with a bunch of the main characters (including both the senior partner and the mother) joining their hands around the hospital bed to pray. So, I would have to say that the last time I saw a Christian portrayed in a positive light on TV was last night. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/183 "2001-02-12T14:22:24Z")
Since you’re, no doubt, going to say that Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t real Christians, allow me to clarify. 1. The Witness was portrayed in a good light. 2. The other Christians on the show (several of the other attorneys) were also portrayed in a good light, such as praying and caring for their injured comrade. – David ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/184 "2001-02-12T16:06:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satan \* > \*\*That said, it reeks of Urban Legend and I wonder if maybe you have a cite for it? \*\* My cite for it is my mother, who said: 1.) She was at a Christian missionary discussion group. 2.) A woman present at the group claimed that she personally had converted the six year old girl, and was very excited about the fact that the child had died. As far as ULs go, this is still too far from first person, but I think it’s worth pointing out that this isn’t my Mom saying “A friend of mine knew someone.” My mom says that she personally heard a first-person account. Then again, it utterly reeks of UL (now that I think about it!) since it’s hard to see how the woman would know the child’s last words. (Additional caution is warranted since we’re dealing with FC’s, of course. When I was in high school, we frequently had a preacher come to assembly to talk about his first-person experiences relocating people who had decided to defect from the Global Satanic Conspiracy…) FWIW, the point I am trying to make is at least as strong if the story is a UL, since it means that FC’s are so excited about the idea of children being martyred that they would actually manufacture kiddie martyr porn (in the form of UL’s) and that interest in such porn is strong enough to support dissemination of the legend. I’ll check this out in Google and see if it’s a common UL, and report back to you guys. (BTW- that thing about the guy being tied to a post? I got that bit right, didn’t I? Guys? And the part about people being stoned?) -Ben ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/185 "2001-02-12T16:15:13Z")
Before I go, I want to say I do not plan on seeing it; I am not a movie person at all. I prefer books. In fact, Hal Lindsey’s book LAte Great planet Earth is what got me saved. I think maybe these guys should stay out of the movie business. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/186 "2001-02-12T16:21:58Z")
I’ve made a quick search of Snopes’ site and with Google. The latter was particularly useless, since “martyr” and “urban legend” brings up Pope Urban and the Legend of St. Such-and-such, Martyr. The closest I could get, with various search terms, was some pages on Cassie Bernall. So at the moment, I’d say it was undecided at best. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/187 "2001-02-12T18:46:48Z")
> [@](#): > > **FriendofGod:** Oh I believe there’s a specific leader in the spiritual realm. I’m sure you can guess who it is :). But no, I definately don’t believe there’s one human leader somewhere in a dark basement running the “Beast” computer. Well, there we go then. Your enemy is Satan. You can’t point to a specific human conspirator, because the Prince of Darkness is subtly influencing and maneuvering and manipulating events and choices. (Shades of Crowley’s re-architecture of British highways in _Good Omens_, no?) Unfortunately, that’s known as an _a priori_ position. You begin with an assumption that Satan is actively engaged in a battle against God and Christians, and that his handiwork is visible in the world. You start with that position, and you must therefore perceive the world in that manner. Ergo, sex on television, atheist newspapers, and all the rest. This is called a “reality tunnel” by fringe writer/philosopher Robert Anton Wilson, who’s kind of a crackpot but occasionally comes out with something really interesting and perceptive. Your reality tunnel tells you that Christians are, by definition, being opposed and persecuted by dark enemy forces, and as a result you look at the world and you see these dark enemy forces. Unfortunately, this is a faith-based (to coin a phrase) viewpoint. Observers who do not have the _a priori_ belief in Satan and his influence will look at the world in a different way. Yes, they will have their own reality tunnels, whether they be economic or sociological or whatever. Personally, I think the prevalence of sex and violence on television has more to do with how our minds are composed of a fast, sharp, overdeveloped intellectual center sitting on top of (and awkwardly joined with) an ancient, primal chimpanzee brain. In other words, our intelligence and creativity are mostly occupied with figuring out more and more efficient ways to compete, reproduce, and consume, and our hyperalert sensory center is therefore drawn to representations of same. That’s my reality tunnel. Given that your entire worldview depends on a different _a priori_ position, one in which you, as a Christian, are in fact being persecuted by dark forces, you’ll just have to forgive those of us who elect not to buy into it. In the same way, we have to accept that you’ll never be able to prove your beliefs in any kind of rational, concrete way. (“And God said, ‘Without faith, I am nothing,’” as the issue was summarized by some philosopher whose name I no longer recall.) You can advocate them as long and as loud as you want, but those who don’t share your starting point will never be converted to your point of view. I suspect I will view the film _Left Behind_ through a similar lens. I’m planning on seeing it tomorrow night… ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/188 "2001-02-12T21:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > Back to the main point: what I was trying to say is this: there are combined factors in the media and in society in general that is working toward a certain mindset about Christians: that they are all a little bit nuts, they’re dangerous, they’re not “tolerant” enough, they want to take away your rights. It’s been _very_ effective. I have a question for the literal Christians who might be reading this - and agree with FoG’s stance of fighting against this “invisible war” which threatens Christianity. If you assume the prophecies are correct - if you assume that the book of Revelation will come to pass - if you assume that the AntiChrist must rise to power, that all these events must gel in order for the will of your god to become manifest - then what the hell are you worried about? Aren’t you, by preventing these dreadfully dark times which are going to befall us if we see some boinking on TV, getting in the way of God’s plan? Do you think he’ll find favor with this? Isn’t it kind of crappy that your god says you have to act a certain way, but in doing so, you’re only getting in the way of what must come to pass? ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/189 "2001-02-12T21:25:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > FoG, I’ll wait for the rest of your answers to my message before I address most of what you’ve said. However, you did say: > > > [@](#): > > > > When’s the last time you saw a religious person portrayed in a positive light on a network TV show or movie? > > How many years has _Touched By An Angel_ been on now? **David** , I’m only speaking for myself here - but I think if I had to pick someone to represent the glorious beauty and power that I imagine an angel might possess, Della Reese wouldn’t be my first choice. Now, Laetitia Casta, maybe… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/190 "2001-02-12T21:55:20Z")
Now, now. Don’t you know that it’s only inner beauty that counts. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/191 "2001-02-12T22:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*Now, now. Don’t you know that it’s only inner beauty that counts. \*\* Well, if Laetitia Casta is willing to show me her inner beauty, I’m willing to take a peek. Della Reese will have to wait outside, even though I’m sure she’s a lovely person, a divine chef, a kind heart, and a philanthropist for all to admire. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/192 "2001-02-12T22:56:49Z")
Thank you, David, for the last remark, albeit tongue-in-cheek. But Delareese Early is very much committed to doing in real life much of what that program produces by _angelus-ex-machina_ systems. So howzabout considering that she was quite a charmer in her younger days, is now well past middle age and hardly most men’s sexual fantasy, but darn well is quite literally practicing what she preaches (being a minister of a small unaffiliated church in California herself – her acting work is structured around allowing her to be home and preach most weeks.) (Source: _Angels Along the Way_, her autobiography) ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/193 "2001-02-13T00:51:11Z")
Due to the sheer volume of posts, I will make most of the following responses fairly brief (of course I always say that and it never happens! ;)) **DoctorJ** , you raised a few good points about Lieberman and Bush, although I’m fairly certain I saw critical stories of Lieberman for talking about God too much near the end of the campaign. I said that society’s decision to “normalize” premarital sex was an attack on Christianity. You said: > [@](#): > > Why an “attack on”, rather than a “diagreement with”? Because it _is_ an attack. There has been nothing pleasant or polite about the media’s attempt to portray anyone who believes in morality as prudish, old fashioned, and out of touch. > [@](#): > > We don’t necessarily want to know who is behind it. We want the names of actual people who would like to destroy Christianity and throw Christians in jail. People with power or influence, preferably. I think I already answered this … there isnt a single specific name to give you. It’s a spiritual force that manifests itself all throughout society in hundreds of ways. I could go investigating all of these things to find specific names of the people behind them, but I’m afraid I don’t have that kind of time :). > [@](#): > > There are many people who cannot visit the SDMB while at work, even on their lunch hour. Would you take that as people wanting to destroy the Straight Dope and throw all Dopers in jail? I can understand a company policy on Internet usage. I wouldnt consider it discriminatory if I couldn’t log onto Christian-oriented sites during the day either, as long as the policy was in place for _everyone_ and not just Christians. But if you or I brought a book we wanted to read during lunch that is our own book, that’s none of the company’s business. > [@](#): > > Bob is a devout Christian, and is very open about it. He is always talking about going to church, invites people to go to church with him, has little Christian sayings taped up all over his office, and always prays before he eats his lunch. > > Jim is a strong atheist, and is very open about it. He is always trying to tell his co-workers to stop going to church because there is obviously no God. He has little notes posted around his office about how religion is a crutch for the weak. > > Ed is a Wiccan, and is very open about it. He does Wiccan things that correspond to the above, which I won’t even try to describe, knowing little about Wicca. However, he makes it very clear what his beliefs are. > > I’m sorry to make a Chick-esque caricature out of it, but which of these three employees is likely to experience more “intense hostility and outright hatred because of his beliefs”? Are you serious? It depends on the corporate culture, but I’d say in _most_ cases, the Christian would be the one for sure! I mean there are exceptions, but do you really think in this day and age that an atheist or a Wiccan would be attacked for their beliefs _more_ than a Christian?? > [@](#): > > It might describe the Democratic party line against Ashcroft, but that is a far cry from claiming it as fact or the paper’s own opinion. Watch carefully at how a story can _claim_ to be objective when it clearly is not. They _will_ many times very subtly imply that one side is more correct than the other. … more later as time permits … I will try to catch up with everyone … ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/194 "2001-02-13T02:31:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* > > I said that society’s decision to “normalize” premarital sex was an attack on Christianity. You said: > > > [@](#): > > > > Why an “attack on”, rather than a “diagreement with”? > > Because it _is_ an attack. There has been nothing pleasant or polite about the media’s attempt to portray anyone who believes in morality as prudish, old fashioned, and out of touch. > > \*\* As I’ve mentioned before, there is no media conspiracy against people who believe in morality. While some media personalities may not have a great deal of respect for the ideal of morality, there are plenty of others who spout nothing but high-minded holier-than-thou platitudes whenever they’re on the air, and many, such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Buchanan can get top billing on any news program whenever they want. Once again, you are complaining about the fact that fundamentalist Christians don’t have complete control over the media the way that they used to. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Bob is a devout Christian, and is very open about it. He is always talking about going to church, invites people to go to church with him, has little Christian sayings taped up all over his office, and always prays before he eats his lunch. > > > > Jim is a strong atheist, and is very open about it. He is always trying to tell his co-workers to stop going to church because there is obviously no God. He has little notes posted around his office about how religion is a crutch for the weak. > > > > Ed is a Wiccan, and is very open about it. He does Wiccan things that correspond to the above, which I won’t even try to describe, knowing little about Wicca. However, he makes it very clear what his beliefs are. > > > > I’m sorry to make a Chick-esque caricature out of it, but which of these three employees is likely to experience more “intense hostility and outright hatred because of his beliefs”? > > Are you serious? It depends on the corporate culture, but I’d say in _most_ cases, the Christian would be the one for sure! I mean there are exceptions, but do you really think in this day and age that an atheist or a Wiccan would be attacked for their beliefs _more_ than a Christian?? YES. On this planet (or at least in this country), Christians are more likely to act hostile to members of other religious groups (especially atheists) than others are. If you don’t believe me, just pick up any newspaper and ocunt the number of letters to the editor that mention the “fact” that all non-Christians will be going to Hell, as opposed to the number of letters from members of any other religious group. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/195 "2001-02-13T06:37:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > **Are you serious? It depends on the corporate culture, but I’d say in _most_ cases, the Christian would be the one for sure! I mean there are exceptions, but do you really think in this day and age that an atheist or a Wiccan would be attacked for their beliefs _more_ than a Christian??** FoG, have you not heard a single word that we have said during this entire conversation? Christians are stoning Wiccans for their beliefs in “this day and age.” Not too long ago, the President of the United States suggested that atheists should not be considered true citizens “in this day and age.” And his son, who is now our President, has publically stated that the First Amendment rights of freedom of religion _do not apply to Wiccans._ When our Christian Presidents are saying that atheists and Wiccans shouldn’t have the full rights that are accorded to Christians, how on earth can you be so blindly hypocritical as to react with _incredulity_ when someone suggests that atheists and Wiccans are more likely to be attacked for their beliefs than Christians? FoG, you have once again managed to disgust me to the very core. While fundamentalist Christians like Bush Jr., Bush Sr., and Bob Barr try to take away the fundamental rights of non-Christian Americans, you are so enmeshed in your masturbatory fantasies of persecution that if someone presents you with a reality that is at variance with your porn, you incredulously ask whether they are joking. It’s no joke for us, FoG. You might live in your little fantasy world, but Wiccans and atheists have to live in reality, and it makes me utterly sick to my stomach to know that the real prejudice we suffer forms the vicarious substance of your base fantasies. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/196 "2001-02-13T08:37:34Z")
Please check out this story: [http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/december95/zellner.html](http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/december95/zellner.html) Do you think this is isolated? I’ll bet things such as this happen a hell of a lot more than a Christian is persecuted - certainly at the level this professor was - in this country. I have never seen a case of a Christian being held hostage by institutional discrimination such as this in this country. Ever. Feel free to enlighten me if I am uninformed. The only stories I hear about how “persecuted” Christians are in this country is when someone or some organization (such as the ACLU, gay activists or Planned Parenthood to use just a few examples) tries to avoid similar institutional discrimination that breaches into the right to be free of religion in certain aspects of their lives, and when the “liberal media” and “secular humanist-owned courts” actually have the audacity to AGREE that prayer in schools is unconstitutional or other similar issues, **that** is what is decried as “persecution of Christians.” Bullshit. This guy and his family were persecuted. And if similar treatment happened to a Christian in the USA, you don’t think that everyone would go nuts about it? Save the martyrdom for people who deserve it. You’re no martyr, Cassie from Columbine didn’t say yes, and people who believe in Jesus decided to make this guy’s life HELL because he didn’t. These are facts. I realize that you’re not too strong when it comes to backing your beliefs up with them, but there you go. Feel free to continue to live in a world where they don’t matter. I don’t plan on joining you there, however. * * * Yer pal, [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/197 "2001-02-13T13:07:35Z")
Ben said: > [@](#): > > And his son, who is now our President, has publically stated that the First Amendment rights of freedom of religion do not apply to Wiccans. Do you have a cite for this? Not because I doubt you, but because I want more info and I want to keep it handy. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/198 "2001-02-13T14:47:11Z")
\*Ben wrote: And his son, who is now our President, has publically stated that the First Amendment rights of freedom of religion do not apply to Wiccans.\* whereupon **DavidB** asked: **Do you have a cite for this? Not because I doubt you, but because I want more info and I want to keep it handy.** **DavidB** , I don’t have a cite, but I believe it was shortly after then Governor Bush returned from a trip to Isreal back in '98 or early '99 (after his comment about Jews not going to heaven 'cause they haven’t accepted Jesus), he made some remark about Wiccans. I also believe he was asked about it during that little toss up with Bob Barr, too. That was in the summer of '99. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/199 "2001-02-13T15:52:19Z")
**David and Freyr** , here’s a cite for you: On Oct. 15, 2000, [http://www.webwhiteblue.org](http://www.webwhiteblue.org), as part of their ongoing “Rolling Debate,” asked this question: “With religious diversity increasing, what are your thoughts on the protection of religious freedom and the separation of church and state? Should religions like Wicca be banned from recognition by the military, as some legislators suggest? \*Submitted from Amber of San Diego, California through Yahoo! (10/15/00) \*” Bush’s answer: "I am committed to the First Amendment principles of religious freedom, tolerance, and diversity. Whether Mormon, Methodist, Jewish, or Muslim, Americans should be able to participate in their constitutional free exercise of religion. I do not think witchcraft is a religion, and I do not think it is in any way appropriate for the U.S. military to promote it." See [here](http://www.webwhiteblue.org/debate/2000%2D10%2D15/bush/question/) He also told an ABC News reporter, “I don’t think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision.” So, apparently, George Bush’s opinion on what is and isn’t a religion trumps the United States Supreme Court. Oh, and **FoG**? You’re nuts if you think the Christian in the hypothetical posed to you would get it worse. When the whole Wicca/Ft. Hood flap was going on, the Dallas Morning News got letters like this one: > [@](#): > > Re: “Wicca is a religion,” Letters, June 22, by Ahriana Bray. > > Wicca is not a religion; it is plain and simple witchcraft. It is a pagan practice and comes directly from Satanism. > > Ms. Bray’s authority, “The U.S. Army Chaplain’s Handbook,” may be politically correct, but it’s still wrong propaganda. You would think U.S. Army base commanders would have enough guts and wisdom to kick those Wiccans right off the base. As for being IRS-recognized, it should make an even weaker case for any fairness or validity. The government manuals and the IRS are not known for being foundations for truth. Actually,witchcraft should be prosecuted as any other form of organized crime. > > Witch Bray’s remark of “Frankly, we don’t care what you believe” shows an attitude of in-your-face defiance of truth displaying rebellion and stubbornness ranking with wickedness and idolatry. Check I Samuel 15:23 in the Bible. > > Witchcraft and Satanism contain practices of sacrificing animals and sometimes human children and women at cruel sadistic ceremonies. As witches come out of the closet it will not change God’s values. We know that Satan’s Wiccas are out there, but that doesn’t make them right. > > BILL SUTTON, Dallas When Jesse Ventura said in an interview with _Playboy_ magazine, “Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers… The religious right wants to tell people how to live,” he was browbeaten for **days** by the media, liberals and conservatives alike, into making an apology. What color is the sky on your planet, FoG? Your statements have so little bearing on reality, I can only wonder. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2001, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/200 "2001-02-13T16:11:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Bush’s answer: > > "I am committed to the First Amendment principles of religious freedom, tolerance, and diversity. > > Whether Mormon, Methodist, Jewish, or Muslim, Americans should be able to participate in their constitutional free exercise of religion. I do not think witchcraft is a religion, and I do not think it is in any way appropriate for the U.S. military to promote it." :eek: Frankly, I had doubted the accuracy of Ben’s memory. But that statement is just un-freakin’-believable. Now pardon me while I go hide under a rock for the next four years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822.md?page=11)