# A Movie That Might Change Your Life . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822 "2001-02-02T04:11:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/141 "2001-02-08T18:30:12Z")
**FoG:** _There are people out there who want to see a one world government. There are people out there who want to destroy Christianity and throw Christians in jail. Ask those in China who’ve experienced it firsthand during the past century. There have been more Christian martyrs during the past century than in all of church history combined._ Can we see a cite for that last assertion, please? And your attempt to make antireligious persecution in China out to be some sort of specifically **anti-Christian** persecution is disingenuous. China amended its constitution in 1992 to permit freedom of religion, but still forbids groups or individuals to declare any allegiance more important than their loyalty to the state. Naturally, this is difficult for Christians to avoid, and those who stick by their religious principles are persecuted. But so are lots of adherents of other religious and spiritual traditions, including the Falun Gong. You are mixing up the antireligious hostility of China’s **state-imposed creed** of atheistic dialectical materialism (which, like **all** state-imposed creeds including state-imposed Christianity, is repressive and tyrannical) with an imagined conspiracy to eradicate world Christianity **in particular**. This latter is sheer victimologist fantasy, the sort of thing that **Ben** correctly labels “fundamentalist porn.” ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/142 "2001-02-08T19:12:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\* Do you hear the Buddhists complaining that Newsweek is actively opposed to their viewpoint and religion because they never put Zoroaster on the cover? \*\* Let’s not forget U.S. News and World Reports, which (for a while at least) seemed to have a picture of Jesus on every other cover. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/143 "2001-02-08T19:36:47Z")
Sadly, **FoG** , you’ve probably convinced more people not to see this movie than to see it, based solely on such hijacks and your responses to them. Your SDMB knowledge has obviously gone rusty in your absence, but allow me to remind you - _if you post it, they will hijack._ Words to live by. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/144 "2001-02-08T19:40:10Z")
Oh, and that goes double for anything you post, **FoG**. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/145 "2001-02-08T20:17:17Z")
RE: PL’s quote about religion in newspapers. Just this week I saw the local paper on someone’s doorstep (I myself get the Atheist NY Times delivered). The headline was “TOWN PRAYS FOR LITTLE KATIE.” I have no idea who Little Katie is (Hepburn?) or that, as a citizen of the town, I was supposed to be praying for her. If she dies, I guess it’s my fault . . . Back in '95 when Madalyn Murray O’Hare disappeared, Tom Brokaw described her on the news as “having the dubious distinction of being the nation’s leading atheist.” I fired off a letter to him asking if he would say the Pope had the “dubious distinction of being the world’s leading Catholic.” To Tom’s credit, he me wrote an apology and said that I had a point. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/146 "2001-02-08T20:36:03Z")
FriendofGod wrote: > [@](#): > > Suppose the Muslim’s believed that the first sign […] would be hundreds of cows falling out of the sky or something. Well, if hundreds of cows started falling out of the sky, OF COURSE I’d look into the Muslim religion! I’d be rather foolish not to, don’t you think? **Of course, this is not going to happen,** but if it did I’d be crazy not to check it out. Well, of **course** hundreds of cows would never ever fall out of the sky. I mean, this isn’t the same thing at **all** as believing that thousands of people are going to be whisked off the Earth with no advance warning and meet Jesus in the middle of the air. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bad_Astronomer)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/147 "2001-02-08T21:53:01Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Ben \* \*\* It’s easy to see why the third fantasy, creationism, is so popular. Fundamentalist christians tend to not be very well educated, and that fact embarasses them. So, they boost their self-esteem by fantasising that they are smarter than 99.9% of all the scientists in the world in virtually every field. To be better educated than Gould, Sagan, Asimov, Dawkins, and all the rest would require years of work acquiring multiple PhD’s, and would be beyond the ability of the vast majority of fundamentalist Christians. \*\*[/VOTE] Note that not all creationists are degreeless. Many have PhDs, and in an actual science (many have ‘fake’ degrees from diploma mills). There is even a PhD astronomer or two that are creationists. I find this fascinating, if not somewhat distasteful. It brings to mind my wife’s favorite phrase: “educated beyond their intelligence”. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/148 "2001-02-08T22:39:05Z")
[Complete Hijack Mode] When I saw the username **The Bad Astronomer** , I thought you might be you :). Here’s a heartfelt plug for TBA’s home page, [http://www.badastronomy.com](http://www.badastronomy.com) Not only is it a pretty cool Q & A page with a lot of good scientific critiques of popular entertainment, he’s also very good at responding to questions and comments from the field. He promptly answered my questions and responded to my comments in a friendly series of emails (from an address other than the one I use here). [/Complete Hijack Mode] ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/149 "2001-02-09T14:28:33Z")
I had said: “Have you read _Mind Siege_? Do you believe there is a worldwide conspiracy of “humanists” to create a socialist one-world government, destroy Christianity, take our children away, throw religious people in jail, etc.?” FoG replied: > [@](#): > > Actually I just heard about this new book recently, and no I haven’t read it. Is is a Christian fiction novel or a teaching book? I’ve actually been curious what it was about. Oh, it’s fiction alright. But LaHaye claims it’s a non-fiction book. It’s not a teaching book, but a call to political action. > [@](#): > > As for what I believe about all of the above … I think “worldwide conspiracy” is overstating it, but good grief you’d have to be blind to not see all of the individual elements listed above creeping slowly into American culture and life. Well, then I guess I’m blind. Care to show me the way? Oh, and by disagreeing with the conspiracy aspect, you just disagreed with LaHaye. He “thinks” (I use the word VERY loosely) that there is, indeed, a worldwide _conspiracy_ of humanists to do all these things and more. > [@](#): > > There _are_ people out there who want to see a one world government. Yeah, and? There are also people who believe aliens are routinely kidnapping them and taking their sperm. So what? The existence of people like this doesn’t mean they are in power or have any chance of ever getting in power. > [@](#): > > There _are_ people out there who want to destroy Christianity and throw Christians in jail. Who? > [@](#): > > Ask those in China who’ve experienced it firsthand during the past century. \< Looking around \> Hmmm. I’m pretty sure we’re in the U.S., as is Mr. LaHaye. So why are you going off about China? > [@](#): > > We aren’t experiencing anything close to that in America today, but there are _many_ people in the good ole USA who would love to see it happen. Such as? > [@](#): > > Now I am saying this having not read Dr Lahaye’s book. It sounds from your review like he is trying to tie it all together into a global conspiracy. Yes, he is. > [@](#): > > If there is any conspiracy at all, personally I think it’s 100% spiritual-based. But I’ll never reject an idea out of hand until I see evidence one way or the other, so I might just have to read this book. Well, you won’t find the _evidence_ in his book – just a lot of wild claims. Apparently, evidence isn’t his strong point. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/150 "2001-02-10T03:48:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Your SDMB knowledge has obviously gone rusty in your absence, but allow me to remind you - if you post it, they will hijack. Esprix, you are very very right and I really should have known better. Thanks for getting me back on track. I will **quickly** summarize brief and incomplete responses to the hijack posts (which I’ll admit I was a part of continuing) and then try to get back to the main point: **pld, Cervaise, and Kimstu** , you made some good points. It’s fascinating to hear how atheists view the world. I still stand by my claim but I can see how you would see things differently. **DavidB** , thank you for giving more details on Mind Siege. I’ll tell you what, if I read it (and I’m thinking I will) I will come back and post a review and we can debate all day. …\*FoG desperately tries to drag the thread back on topic, gasps for breath … \* Well, I just went to watch Left Behind _AGAIN_ tonight. Yes you can call me a fan :). I have the feeling this will be the Christian’s equivalent of Star Wars, the movie we love to see over and over. Not as good effects or acting, but still fun to watch over and over. I’ll admit I’m frustrated that they released to video first. The sales of the video were _phenomenal_. IMHO, if they had simply opened in theatres first, the movie would have at least made the top 10 if not #1. But the past is the past. They are hoping it will rise this weekend. Maybe, maybe not. We’ll see. The even more frustrating thing is it _is_ a better movie in a theatre, but try convincing someone who already owns it! Okay, I’m done venting. So I’m curious … have any more of you seen the movie besides those who already posted a review? I’d be curious as to your thoughts, good, bad, or middle of the road. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/151 "2001-02-10T06:07:20Z")
FOG, most of the people who have seen the movie in the theatres are the “true believers” who bought the video in the first place. These are the same hard cases who are flooding the movie review sites with multiple “5-star” reviews, and boasting on the various _Left Behind_ message boards about seeing the movie dozens of times to pump as much money as possible into Cloud Ten’s coffers. In fact, it seems as if a large percentage of these people believe that the more videos they buy and the more times they see the movie, the more “Christian” they are! The trouble is that the movie is losing viewers because as soon as the rental time is up, the theatres drop the movie like a hot rock. The movie would have made even LESS money than the pittance it has earned otherwise. Believe it or not, Hollywood is not fooled by those who are buying multiple videos or are seeing the movie 10 or more times. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/152 "2001-02-10T06:57:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Have you read Mind Siege? Do you believe there is a worldwide conspiracy of “humanists” to create a socialist one-world government, destroy Christianity, take our children away, throw religious people in jail, etc.? > > As for what I believe about all of the above … I think “worldwide conspiracy” is overstating it, but good grief you’d have to be blind to not see all of the individual elements listed above creeping slowly into American culture and life. > > There _are_ people out there who want to see a one world government. There _are_ people out there who want to destroy Christianity and throw Christians in jail. Ask those in China who’ve experienced it firsthand during the past century. There have been more Christian martyrs during the past century than in all of church history combined. We aren’t experiencing anything close to that in America today, but there are _many_ people in the good ole USA who would love to see it happen. > > \*\* Having lived in a southern city a been forced to read an ultraconservative newspaper for several years, I am familiar with this idea of a widespread attempt to subvert Christianity by using the media. The solution, however, is quite simple: convert to Judaism. Needless to say, nobody in any branch of the media has ever shown the slightest disrespect for the Jews. 😉 ;j (Why can’t I combine these icons?) Seriously, though, you just need to rent “A Price Above Rubies” to see just one example from a long string of movies that portrays Jews as moral hypocrites who care only about money. I don’t buy the line that the mainstream media attacks only Christians and never any other religion. How many movies have we had in the past few years telling us that all Moslems are viscious terrorists? And their isn’t any signifigant number of people who want to see Christians thrown in jail, as FoG was finally forced to admit. Fundamentalist Christians have a definite tendency to overeact to any statement that deosn’t fit in exactly with their world view, while at the same time ignoring the extremism of some members of their own religion. Do I need to remind everyone that less than a year ago, an ally of President Bush said that in WWII, the USA should have joined with Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/153 "2001-02-10T14:15:42Z")
FoG said: > [@](#): > > DavidB, thank you for giving more details on Mind Siege. I’ll tell you what, if I read it (and I’m thinking I will) I will come back and post a review and we can debate all day. I’d offer to send you mine (just so LaHaye doesn’t get any more money), but I may write a review about it, so I can’t. But I’m still interested in the answers to the questions I asked you. Those did not rely specifically on LaHaye’s book, but rather on claims you made. Why didn’t you answer? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/154 "2001-02-10T15:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > **pld, Cervaise, and Kimstu, you made some good points. It’s fascinating to hear how atheists view the world. I still stand by my claim but I can see how you would see things differently.** You _honestly_ believe that only “atheists” view the world in such a manner, i.e., to be intelligent enough to discern that the front page of the paper is not the “secular humanism” section? Is this FoG-speak for, “I cannot defend my position, so I will retreat once again into Fantasyland”? Polycarp, RTFirefly, Jodi–you guys think the front page is the atheist section? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/155 "2001-02-10T16:06:32Z")
I’m (obviously) not one of the people listed above, but I happen to have the front page of the Feb. 2 _State Journal-Register_ (Springfield, IL) here (I was interested in one of the stories for other reasons). Let’s see what stories there are: Top story: “Ashcroft Sworn In” – An AP article about, well, the headline pretty much says it all. Last I checked, Ashcroft is not a secular humanist. Alas. To the right is an article, “$1 Million Donated to Library” – about a donation from the Motorola Foundation to the Lincoln Presidential Library. I suppose the library will probably be used to further control the minds of impressionable youngsters instead of sending them to church. There is a large color photo of kids laughing at a mime/magician at Blessed Sacrament school as part of Catholic Schools Week. According to LaHaye and his ilk, Catholics are probably evil, and according to me, mimes are _definitely_ evil. Below that is an article, “California Youth Charged With Net Death Threats” – Obviously by highlighting the violence of children, they are trying to encourage more evil secular humanists to try to do the same thing. Next to that is an article, “Lessons in Living as Communities” – it discusses how people living in a neighborhood are coming together to fight crime, garbage, and unkempt properties. Obviously part of a secret secular humanist conspiracy. Finally is the article I was interested in, “Latest Police Warning a Little Over the Line” – about the local police spreading an urban legend they had received in forwarded e-mail. Obviously, by portraying the police as stupid, evil secular humanists are trying to encourage us to rise up against them. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/156 "2001-02-10T17:17:28Z")
…speaking of newspapers being the tool of the evil secular humanist conspiracy… here in beautiful Montgomery, Alabama, our local paper was running the entire New Testament, a few verses at a time, for a year (I believe it was for the year 2000…I’d have to go back and check). Now, get this - their reason for doing it was to promote religious diversity and tolerance! HELLO? McFLY? You’re a newspaper in Alabama - the Bible Belt - a hardcore predominantly Christian area - and you promote tolerance and diversity by telling people what they already believe? \Yes, truly, this is a secular conspiracy. Hang the atheists!\ ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/157 "2001-02-10T19:32:11Z")
> [@](#): > > **FriendofGod:** pld, Cervaise, and Kimstu, you made some good points. It’s fascinating to hear how atheists view the world. I still stand by my claim but I can see how you would see things differently. Actually, I never said I’m an atheist. You’re just reading that into me because I haven’t come down on **your** side. Truth be told, I’m an open-minded agnostic. There’s no proof either way, so I draw no conclusions. What I’ve observed in human behavior – in terms of the mind’s tendency to draw conclusions, see parallels, and find meaning, even where none reasonably exist, as well as our desperate need for comfort in a large, complex, incomprehensible world – that tends to support the notion that religion is an invented construct. It isn’t **proof,** though. Like I said, there is no proof. Hence, agnosticism. My open-mindedness allows me to see things from various sides. In playing devil’s advocate (and isn’t **that** a loaded phrase), in trying to show you why your notions of persecution and an aggressively atheist media are off-base, I am sliding over to one side. I can slide back the other way, as I did when observing that a reasonable Christian might perceive an anti-religious bias in the media’s subtle support for gay rights, against restrictions on abortion, and the like. As I said, some people view this as “progress,” but I can see how someone could interpret this differently. It isn’t proof; it’s just an opinion. And speaking of proof, I find it interesting that you still stand by your claim (which I assume to mean that the front page of the newspaper is the “atheist” page, and that the world in general is out to get you) even though it has been demonstrated over and over to you that there’s no support for such a belief (aside from the very narrowly drawn and limited examples named above). I proposed two admittedly extreme and parodistic alternatives as to how to make the front page truly atheist and truly Christian; reductio ad absurdum. I have yet to hear from you any rationale about why these are off base, or specifically why the front page is atheist instead of, as I said, flexibly and openly secular, with facts only. I repeat: Would it not be atheist only if all the stories mentioned souls and praying and Jesus? Can you not see what an unworkable proposition that would be? And yes, to answer **your** question, I have every intention of seeing _Left Behind._ Look at my sig. I’m a movie geek. I see **everything** eventually. I will see it with an open mind, as I do every movie, and I will judge it **as a movie.** I am predisposed neither against its message, as a true atheist would be, nor for it, as a Christian would be. If it is a well-made movie, and if the philosophical theme is smoothly and professionally handled, then I will no doubt enjoy the movie. Compare, for example, _The Sparrow_, which I am currently reading. An outstanding example of a book that treats its spiritual themes with complexity and honesty, instead of as aggressive proselytizing. I’m enjoying it tremendously, and am getting a lot out of it. Hardly an atheistic book, and hardly an atheistic position, wouldn’t you say? Please: You do your religion a disservice to fall into the “poor me, all the anti-Christians are out to get me” mindset. Your faith will be much more honest and valid if your perception of the world is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/158 "2001-02-10T20:52:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t buy the line that the mainstream media attacks only Christians and never any other religion. I would actually agree. The media had a fit anytime religion is involved, no matter what the religion (take note: both Dubya and Lieberman were attacked last fall for daring to be honest about their religious beliefs). > [@](#): > > But I’m still interested in the answers to the questions I asked you. Those did not rely specifically on LaHaye’s book, but rather on claims you made. Why didn’t you answer? Well, I _thought_ my little note at the top of the last post was pretty clear – I was trying to slowly maneuver things back to the main topic. Since you are making a second effort I will at least partly try to answer your questions. I said: > [@](#): > > you’d have to be blind to not see all of the individual elements listed above creeping slowly into American culture and life You responded: > [@](#): > > Well, then I guess I’m blind. Care to show me the way? I could give dozens upon dozens of examples, but let me just pick one. I grew up watching TV in the 1970s. The taboo of premarital sex had already begun to be broken in the late 60s, but there were still many who considered it taboo. Subtle changes began to take place. Admittedly things had been ridiculously extreme in the other direction in the 50s (married couples sleeping in separate beds), but in the late 60s / early 70s, slowly but surely, it became more acceptable to see unmarried couples heading into a room and then cut to them cuddling in bed later. As the 70s turned into the 80s and 90s, you can easily see how this blatant display of sexuality has gotten more and more brazen. We’ve gone from unmarried couples cuddling in the bedroom to married couples committing adultery, showing as graphic a sex scene as possible on network tv, and pixilating out body parts so you can practically show soft porn. It’s very subtle if you don’t watch for it. And what is entertaining to me is that there _ARE_ people out there who would have listed the _exact_ same list I just gave you, and actually call it _progress_! My point: this is an outright attack on the Christian principle that sexuality was created by God to be enjoyed by a husband and wife. This idea has been ridiculed and attacked as “old fashioned” in every way imaginable. Now, there _is_ a counter-revolution underway with the “True Love Waits” campaign, but my point is that this subtle shift didn’t occur by accident. Again, I don’t believe there was a Chief Humanist somewhere overseas directing orders on all this, but I do believe there was a very deliberate orchestration of these events in the spiritual realm. I could give dozens more similar examples but that gives you an idea of what I mean. Regarding those who believe in a one world govt, you said: > [@](#): > > The existence of people like this doesn’t mean they are in power or have any chance of ever getting in power. Fair point. But stop and think, if you believed this and thought it would hurt you politically, you wouldn’t have to advertise that it’s what you believe. Once you’re in power, you can make subtle changes that, in the long haul, can aim you toward your goal. As for those who want to destroy Christianity and throw Christians in jail, you simply asked “Who?” I can’t give you a name DB. All I can point to, again, is the subtle changes in society over the past 30 years. I can’t point to a _person_ as being behind it … again , I think it’s a spiritual force behind it. Examples: When I was in Atlanta, I heard about a Christian being told he could not bring his Bible to work, even if all he wanted to do was read it on his own during lunch hour. There are _countless_ stories of believers who are treated with intense hostility and outright hatred because of their beliefs, by co workers, bosses, and others. Again, it’s a subtle, slow process. The subtle shift in moral beliefs is part of it. Okay, I hope that at least partly answered your questions. As for pld, Cervaise, and Kimstu, I’ll have to return later and try to respond, but in a nutshell … headlines mean nothing. Read the _stories_. For example, the John Ashcroft piece. Maybe it’s a very accurate story, but in most cases I’ve seen reporting that just parrots the Democrat party line against Ashcroft. That’s what I meant by my comment that “the front page” is the humanist section. It purports to be neutral, but in reality, many times, it pushes an agenda. Perhaps unwittingly. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Sometimes they really _do_ report it accurately! It happens. But my point is that much (not all) of the news today is obviously slanted in a direction. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/159 "2001-02-10T21:43:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > I would actually agree. The media had a fit anytime religion is involved, no matter what the religion (take note: both Dubya and Lieberman were attacked last fall for daring to be honest about their religious beliefs). When, exactly? The only time I ever heard Bush being called out was when he referred to Jesus Christ as his favorite political philosopher. You would say that it was an honest and bold statement of his beliefs; others would say either that he was pandering or that he couldn’t name another political philosopher. I say it’s all of the above. Besides, where was the outcry from the Christians when Bush referred to that reporter as a “major-league asshole”? Doesn’t seem terribly Christ-like to me. As for Lieberman, I did hear him attacked fairly often–in the Letters to the Editor of my local newspaper, by Christians who could not believe that anyone would vote for a candidate who had not accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. All the other discussion I heard either concerned specifics of his beliefs (working on Saturday, dealings in the Middle East, etc.) or how people would react to a Jew on the ticket. In other words, Lieberman did get some grief about his religion–because _it wasn’t Christianity_. Re: the changing attitudes about sex since the 1950s–I would recommend a book entitled _The Way We Never Were_, by Stephanie Coontz. It talks about how the nostalgia for 50s “family values” is largely misplaced, and that if anything, the 50s are a historical anomaly. > [@](#): > > My point: this is an outright attack on the Christian principle that sexuality was created by God to be enjoyed by a husband and wife. Why an “attack on”, rather than a “diagreement with”? Is the fact that grocery stores are open on Saturday “an outright attack on the Orthodox Jewish principle that God intended the Sabbath to be the day of rest”? > [@](#): > > As for those who want to destroy Christianity and throw Christians in jail, you simply asked “Who?” I can’t give you a name DB. All I can point to, again, is the subtle changes in society over the past 30 years. I can’t point to a _person_ as being behind it … again , I think it’s a spiritual force behind it. We don’t necessarily want to know who is behind it. We want the names of actual people who would like to destroy Christianity and throw Christians in jail. People with power or influence, preferably. > [@](#): > > Examples: When I was in Atlanta, I heard about a Christian being told he could not bring his Bible to work, even if all he wanted to do was read it on his own during lunch hour. There are many people who cannot visit the SDMB while at work, even on their lunch hour. Would you take that as people wanting to destroy the Straight Dope and throw all Dopers in jail? > [@](#): > > There are _countless_ stories of believers who are treated with intense hostility and outright hatred because of their beliefs, by co workers, bosses, and others. Let me offer three scenarios. Bob, Jim, and Ed work in identical offices. Bob is a devout Christian, and is very open about it. He is always talking about going to church, invites people to go to church with him, has little Christian sayings taped up all over his office, and always prays before he eats his lunch. Jim is a strong atheist, and is very open about it. He is always trying to tell his co-workers to stop going to church because there is obviously no God. He has little notes posted around his office about how religion is a crutch for the weak. Ed is a Wiccan, and is very open about it. He does Wiccan things that correspond to the above, which I won’t even try to describe, knowing little about Wicca. However, he makes it very clear what his beliefs are. I’m sorry to make a Chick-esque caricature out of it, but which of these three employees is likely to experience more “intense hostility and outright hatred because of his beliefs”? > [@](#): > > headlines mean nothing. Read the _stories_. For example, the John Ashcroft piece. Maybe it’s a very accurate story, but in most cases I’ve seen reporting that just parrots the Democrat party line against Ashcroft. Examples, please. It might describe the Democratic party line against Ashcroft, but that is a far cry from claiming it as fact or the paper’s own opinion. In fact, my pet peeve in all the Ashcroft stories was that they all said he is “almost certain to be confirmed by the Senate”–true, perhaps, but still speculation. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822/160 "2001-02-10T22:00:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by FriendofGod:_ > > **Again, I don’t believe there was a Chief Humanist somewhere overseas directing orders on all this, but I do believe there was a very deliberate orchestration of these events in the spiritual realm.** [Church Lady]Now, just who do you think could be responsible for all this? Could it be… _ **SATAN?!?!?!** _ [/Church Lady] > [@](#): > > **I can’t point to a _person_ as being behind it … again , I think it’s a spiritual force behind it.** You DO think it’s the Devil, don’t you? > [@](#): > > **Examples: When I was in Atlanta, I heard about a Christian being told he could not bring his Bible to work, even if all he wanted to do was read it on his own during lunch hour.** Now, there, you have a point. As long as that was all he did, people should have no problem with it. > [@](#): > > **There are _countless_ stories of believers who are treated with intense hostility and outright hatred because of their beliefs, by co workers, bosses, and others.** Well, as an atheist, I can tell you about the hostility _I’ve_ received when my beliefs became known. It depends upon whom you’re with whether you get hostility or tolerance. As for another review of _Left Behind_, read this one: [New Times LA](http://www.newtimesla.com/issues/2001-02-01/film2.html) The critic reviews not just the film (and finds it wanting) he also points out a few problems with the whole premise: 1. The Bible does not mention the Rapture. 2. Paul said the _spirit_ would be raised and not the body. 3. The word _Antichrist_ never appears in the Book of Revelation. Other problems: 1. We are never told which country launches the nuclear strike against Israel. (IN the book, it’s Russia. Funny, because Russia couldn’t attack Monaco without outside help. 😉 ) 2. In the movie, an airline attendant becomes a press secretary. :rolleyes: 3. Buck Williams stumbles upon a conspiracy of “international bankers.” (Jews, maybe?) I ain’t gonna see it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-movie-that-might-change-your-life/52822.md?page=9)