# A National God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979 "2011-11-05T19:33:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/21 "2011-11-05T21:01:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which “God” is the official deity of the United States? [Who do you think?](http://www.xaxeres.com/images/cthulhu_for_president.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/22 "2011-11-05T21:02:46Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It is not. In England in the 18th century there was an established religion, namely the Church of England, meaning that one members of that church could vote, hold office, teach at university, or exercise certain other rights, all over Britain. This fact was a sore point for many of the groups that fled to the colonies and later founded the United States. To ensure that the federal government wouldn’t restrict the right of individuals based on their religious beliefs or states based on their religious policies, the establishment clause was placed in the Bill of Rights, but those who wrote it would be baffled by claims that it was intended to censor aesthetic decisions such as what can be displayed in or on government buildings. Do you consider the declaration of a government that that nation believes in God, and that it trusts in that God, to be a merely aesthetic decision? I ask because that’s not what’s born out by your quotes. To the contrary, the quotes you cite from Washington, Adams and Lincoln suggest they would consider a merely aesthetic decision to be entirely inappropriate and not worshipful enough. If anything, they would seem to be in agreement with those systems in England at the time to have an established religion. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/23 "2011-11-05T21:10:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I say that it is the official position of the United States that God exists. That fact is at the foundation of this country. Take away “God” and you have no inalienable rights, you have the whims of monarchs: That’s inaccurate. There are plenty of divine beings, or otherwise objective-law-setting-beings, who could be the source of such inalienable rights. Or the concept could merely be rules built into the universe without a god - and there could even be gods who act against those rights, who would prefer those rights not to be inalienable. Monarchs, in those days, claimed their rights not simply from their person, but from divine right acting through them. Their whims were equally declared the result of divine influence. If the founders of your nation desired to follow God, then surely they would have continued acting in the name of their rightful King. Unless, I suppose, they felt that the notion of declaring divine providence was inherently not certain. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/24 "2011-11-05T21:16:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which “God” is the official deity of the United States? Kali! (Grabs strangling cord and pick-axe and goes out to murder strangers at truck stops…) Trinopus (or…maybe not) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/25 "2011-11-05T21:30:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I say that it is the official position of the United States that God exists. That fact is at the foundation of this country. Take away “God” and you have no inalienable rights, you have the whims of monarchs: A silly argument. For one thing, just because some imaginary (or even real) god says something is a right doesn’t make it so. And second, since “God” is indistinguishable from being nonexistent, it’s less of a firm foundation than the whim of a monarch. At least if a monarch offers his protection, he can try to enforce it. Since “God” isn’t going to actually show up and make his opinion known, claiming that something is the “will of God” is just giving a divine label to your own unsupported whim\*. Nor has historically “God” been a supporter of inalienable rights; on the contrary, “God” is usually used as an excuse as to why we have to trample on the rights of people. So your idea fails even on the most practical of levels; it just doesn’t work the way you say it does. - Which is why I’ve been using “God” in quotes; in this context “God” is just a fancy label for the particular agenda of whoever is invoking the name, not an entity. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/26 "2011-11-05T21:32:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What are his views on the 2nd Amendment and tax reform? Assuming you are talking of the Christian Bible, It depends on which books you read. In the Old Testament, you should clearly arm yourself with whatever the most effective weapon is to pound the shit out of the hethens, and also make sure that your leader keeps his arms up. As for tax reform, there isn’t much guidance as long as you are paying suitable tithe and not engaging in idoltry. For the New Testament, you should only pound the hell out of moneylenders and [del]Romans[/del] Mohammedans, and render to Caeser what has Caeser’s image upon it while still making sure that God’s anointed mouthpieces are well-fed and appointed. The Jewish Yahweh, on the other hand, doesn’t make a lot of restrictions on weapons or cash, although he is rather concerned about what you are eating and how you eat it. The god of the Muslims just wants you to convert everyone else to Islam or otherwise kick the living shit out of them. Those Hindu gods, I don’t really know what they’re all about, but they sure have a lot of arms and seem to be having a lot of fun (except for Dhumavati). Stranger ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/27 "2011-11-05T21:57:15Z")
Fox News commentators were delighted that Congress reaffirmed America’s God-trusting status but (and I do agree with them on this) thought it shameful that such a resolution was “necessary.” (No, I don’t actually watch Faux News. I get a synopsis of their reports from one of America’s better real news shows – Jon Stewart.) ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/28 "2011-11-05T21:57:27Z")
I e’d my Congressman (for whom I voted) and asked him to explain to me please just who this “we” is who trusts in God. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/29 "2011-11-05T22:35:22Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > It seems to me that it does mean that governmentally declaring the existence of a particular form of deity … does rather run afoul of idea of Church/State seperation, though. … If only because is there really any doubt that if the folks responsible for adding God to all things American wouldn’t even let the question “Umm, is this “god” your talking about Jesus’s dad or…” be completed before answering. The whole Ceremonial Deism “this is all merely ritual and non-religious reference to what ever you want God to mean exactly…” is retconning of the most obvious, and insulting to the retconee’s intelligence, kind. > [@magellan01](#): > > … Take away “God” and you have no inalienable rights … Really take “(G)god(s)” away and exactly where do those inalienable rights come from then? This, _We hold these truths to be self-evident_, is where unalienable rights come from. “Laws of Nature”, “Nature’s God” and “their Creator” are simply an attempt to move the endower of those unalienable rights from the God of the Bible to the God of The Enlightenment. When no divine endower of things self-evident is required. It matters not at all where self-evident unalienable rights come from, what matters is that the governed agree on what their limits are, > [@](#): > > The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. and that governments both recognize and protect them. > [@Acsenray](#): > > The Declaration of Independence is not any official statement of the government or of the state. It is a statement only of the individuals who signed it, … I’d argue that those individuals were reminding folks that the “divine right of kings” was a fiction, > [@](#): > > When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them … > … Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed … and that the, divine or not, rights of the governed trump all others. It’s really interesting to read the DoI followed by English Bill of Rights. I think it’s very arguable that there’s a whole lot more subtext in the DoI than text (I.E. when governments, including kings, act in ways that do not enjoy the consent of the governed, it turns out it really ain’t that “good to be the “king””). CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/30 "2011-11-05T22:50:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which “God” is the official deity of the United States? [American Jesus](http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/932/898/9328984b-df29-4af4-b75d-c4928984c9f9) ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/31 "2011-11-05T23:13:01Z")
Baby Jesus threw up a little in his mouth what that bill passed. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/32 "2011-11-06T00:03:03Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It is not. In England in the 18th century there was an established religion, namely the Church of England, meaning that one members of that church could vote, hold office, teach at university, or exercise certain other rights, all over Britain. This fact was a sore point for many of the groups that fled to the colonies and later founded the United States. To ensure that the federal government wouldn’t restrict the right of individuals based on their religious beliefs or states based on their religious policies, the establishment clause was placed in the Bill of Rights, but those who wrote it would be baffled by claims that it was intended to censor aesthetic decisions such as what can be displayed in or on government buildings. If you act to establish something, you’ve created an establishment. It’s the literal interpretation of the letter of the Constitution. And unlike the bit about “a well-regulated militia” in the 2nd Amendment, the stuff you referred to isn’t mentioned at all. And of course there is a sectarian rather than aesthetic intent behind religious slogans on government buildings. Quoting George Washington on Almighty God and then minimizing this stuff as “aesthetic” smacks of weaseling. > [@](#): > > So what? So certain vulnerable populations learned the hard way that they couldn’t trust in God. Actually, the purpose of my point there was to pre-empt any argument the God acts primarily through the work of religious people rather than by using actual supernatural power. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/33 "2011-11-06T00:24:33Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > This, _We hold these truths to be self-evident_, is where unalienable rights come from. “Laws of Nature”, “Nature’s God” and “their Creator” are simply an attempt to move the endower of those unalienable rights from the God of the Bible to the God of The Enlightenment. When no divine endower of things self-evident is required. Beat me to it. In fact, read my mind. The God of the Bible is faith-based, not self-evident. To put it another way, these days we take our rights for granted and argue about whether God exists. In those days they took God for granted and argued about whether the people or the king got rights. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/34 "2011-11-06T02:50:41Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Separation of Church and State doesn’t mean pretending religion and/or God doesn’t exist in the public sphere. Please define “the public sphere”. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/35 "2011-11-06T03:21:02Z")
[George Washington.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotheosis_of_George_Washington) ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/36 "2011-11-06T03:51:26Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Separation of Church and State doesn’t mean pretending religion and/or God doesn’t exist in the public sphere. Maybe not in the States, where people still seem to have problems understanding the concept of income tax, or the non-cohabitation of dinosaurs and cavemen, but at least over here, Separation of Church and State precisely means God doesnt exist in the public sphere. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/37 "2011-11-06T04:39:40Z")
I will just say this, to all of the folks trying to strip _every_ trace of religion out of _every_ conceivable thing: keep at it if you want Republicans to keep getting elected. You are just giving your enemies more fuel against you. Like it or not, the majority of America does believe in God and does not have a problem with whatever religious things you are objecting to, no matter how much it upsets you. Every time you attack what they hold sacred, it backfires against you. People don’t understand how good they’ve got it. Nobody’s being forced to believe in a religion or else lose their citizenship or legal status; nobody’s being forced to ride in the back of the bus here. Nobody’s being deprived of their rights, arrested, beaten, or executed based on their religion. At the very most, this is something that _annoys_ you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/38 "2011-11-06T04:50:28Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Please define “the public sphere”. I don;t want to copy and past it. It is too long: > **[Public sphere](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_sphere)** > > The public sphere (German: Öffentlichkeit) is an area in social life where individuals can come together to freely discuss and identify societal problems, and through that discussion, influence political action. A "Public" is "of or concerning the people as a whole." Such a discussion is called public debate and is defined as the expression of views on matters that are of concern to the public—often, but not always, with opposing or diverging views being expressed by participants in the discussio... ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/39 "2011-11-06T05:16:03Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Yeah, but various Presidents sure did a lot as concerns that – and, according to them, God helped. > > Or is that not what _“so help me God”_ means? No it isn’t. That phrase is a hortative, with a meaning rougly equivalent to “…And may God help me keep this vow.” ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/40 "2011-11-06T05:37:44Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > A wily and singular species, _Deus Americanus_, is most likely to be found at rodeos, stock car races, and air shows featuring “Rock You Like a Hurricane.” Conspicuous in his long white beard, camouflage painter’s cap and American flag short-shorts, he can be tempermental if provoked by excessive talk about Canadian healthcare or the European Union. > > He is unavailable from September until late January, as he is busy helping professional football players score touchdowns. Wasn’t “Rock You Like a Hurricane” sung by the German rock band the Scorpions? Maybe you are thinking of “Jack and Diane” or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979.md?page=3)