# A National God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979 "2011-11-05T19:33:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/81 "2011-11-08T04:53:34Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > None of what you described is official government policy! It’s the act of individual people bullying you. Nor is the “Jew beating and Muslim beating” being carried out or endorsed by the government. I guess I should have clarified when I said “Nobody’s being deprived of their rights, arrested, beaten, or executed based on their religion” that I meant, nobody is having these things done to them by the law. They may experience persecution, but it’s the act of individual bad people. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I think his point was that there’s no State mandated nor State defended persecution. It’s still a rather terrible point, I’ll grant you that. Seems that the population doing it was just fine with the state and local government. None of the complaints ever got any action. If the government is down with people bullying other people based on religion, and does nothing to remedy the situation means that the government is tacitly letting the population with those belief patterns know it is OK to go ahead and abuse those without the same belief patterns. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/82 "2011-11-08T16:36:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Read my followup post #64. > > It is not the US government who wants that motto, as it is actually contrary to their control, it is God who requires it of the US government for them to continue to exist and it not in the power of the US government to remove it, only God. So I guess we were on pretty thin ice with the big guy up until the 1950’s when we stamped on the coinage huh? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/83 "2011-11-08T16:53:08Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > So I guess we were on pretty thin ice with the big guy up until the 1950’s when we stamped on the coinage huh? Well, yeah: winning in WWII, that was us; losing in Vietnam, that was the big guy helping. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/84 "2011-11-08T17:51:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It is not the US government who wants that motto, as it is actually contrary to their control, it is God who requires it of the US government for them to continue to exist and it not in the power of the US government to remove it, only God. So, all countries that exist have it on their currency? To my knowledge (via Google) Japan’s currency mention no gods, your god or otherwise. So Japan does not exist? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/85 "2011-11-08T18:05:48Z")
God likes us best. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/86 "2011-11-08T19:04:03Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > But to give religion (defined as any beliefs about active supernatural forces) a national role is to create a national establishment of religion. As has already been pointed out, this may be true for your personal definition of “establishment of religion” but is certainly not true for the definition used by the founders of the Constitution, the dictionary, or the bulk of English speakers. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/87 "2011-11-08T19:30:32Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > So, all countries that exist have it on their currency? To my knowledge (via Google) Japan’s currency mention no gods, your god or otherwise. So Japan does not exist? Why would you think this? It is not obviously not a requirement for a country that doesn’t have it. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/88 "2011-11-08T19:38:29Z")
The USA didn’t have it before 1955; how did it become a requirement? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/89 "2011-11-08T19:47:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why would you think this? It is not obviously not a requirement for a country that doesn’t have it. 😕 So God only requires it of the US government? Why is that? And how do you know, obviously the USA is not mentioned in the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/90 "2011-11-08T19:58:16Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > So God only requires it of the US government? Why is that? And how do you know, obviously the USA is not mentioned in the Bible? God rules over the nations & he does as He pleases. There are principalities, you may consider what I am talking about as nations, but they are ‘prince-doms’ ruling angelic princes that play this world as we may play a game of Sid Myres Civilization. Each prince is unique, so what they would like of their people will not be the same as another price, God mediates on our behalf, as we commonly have no idea this is going on, and sets limits on these princes as what they can do to their population and what freedoms a people can have. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/91 "2011-11-08T20:04:59Z")
That did not answer my question. How do you know our “prince-dom” has the “god on money” requirement, and others do not? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/92 "2011-11-08T20:17:05Z")
**Rev** , … he’s delved into “angelic-princes.” Do you really think you’re going to get any sort of answer based in reality at this point? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/93 "2011-11-08T20:18:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God rules over the nations & he does as He pleases. > > There are principalities, you may consider what I am talking about as nations, but they are ‘prince-doms’ ruling angelic princes that play this world as we may play a game of Sid Myres Civilization. > > Each prince is unique, so what they would like of their people will not be the same as another price, God mediates on our behalf, as we commonly have no idea this is going on, and sets limits on these princes as what they can do to their population and what freedoms a people can have. Bad Bible fan fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/94 "2011-11-08T20:36:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It just turns out that the Founders believed that these rights did sprout from God. That fact is the moral underpinning of the DofI and the founding of this country. You may not want it to be, but too bad. It is. That is what they thought. They even, you know, wrote it down. If rights sprout from God they can’t be inalienable. What God gives, he can take away. Ergo, man cannot be endowed by his creator with inalienable rights, and the Declaration of Independence is just a piece of paper or it would have torn a hole in the space-time continuum. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/95 "2011-11-08T20:46:45Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > That did not answer my question. How do you know our “prince-dom” has the “god on money” requirement, and others do not? Holy Spirit, aka God told me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/96 "2011-11-08T21:04:12Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > War is quite the secular endeavor. This is, like, so wrong. Try explaining the Doolittle raid on Japan in 1942. God sent a strong wind to allow the U.S. carrier Hornet\* to launch heavy bombers off its deck, then the same bad weather forced the American bombers to hit Japan from different angles, confusing the enemy. Before that, the Japanese Divine Wind had protected _them_. So clearly God is on our side, or else you have to believe in random weather fronts and other pagan crapola. And how else did we find Saddam and Osama, if not for trusting in our official motto, now reaffirmed by our God-fearing Congress in time for Election Day? There are no atheists in foxholes, nor are there foxes in atheists’ holes. It’s in the Bible. \*representing one of the Biblical plagues. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/97 "2011-11-08T21:09:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Holy Spirit, aka God told me 🙂 He told me you were wrong, and that it’s blasphemous to reference His Holiness on filthy root-of-all-evil money. Reverend Tim, ULC ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/98 "2011-11-08T21:26:42Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > He told me you were wrong, and that it’s blasphemous to reference His Holiness on filthy root-of-all-evil money. > > Reverend Tim, ULC God Bless you too, and it’s the _love_ of money that Jesus stated as the root of all evil, not the money itself. And that being true, seems like a great place for God to put His slogan 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/99 "2011-11-08T22:21:37Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As has already been pointed out, this may be true for your personal definition of “establishment of religion” but is certainly not true for the definition used by the founders of the Constitution, the dictionary, or the bulk of English speakers. Where’s it been pointed out that that isn’t true for the definition used by the bulk of English speakers? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979/100 "2011-11-10T00:21:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As has already been pointed out, this may be true for your personal definition of “establishment of religion” but is certainly not true for the definition used by the founders of the Constitution, the dictionary, or the bulk of English speakers. That doesn’t explain how it’s _not_. But the question I have for you, **ITR champion** is, what does Catholic Teaching have to say about whether God recognizes nations and intervenes on their behalf as groups? What does the Church have to say about the idea that the United States has been singled out by God as Exceptional in some way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-national-god/601979.md?page=6)