A national-scale high speed rail? For whom?

Well, that’s the rub, isn’t it? Because the obvious answer to date has been yes…that’s EXACTLY where we, the people want our ‘transportation dollars’ to go. After all, it’s not like the government is forcing us to use the existing transportation systems, or like it’s keeping us from a bright shiny new HSR system. WE decided (decades ago) what we wanted and what we wanted to put our collective tax dollars into, and the politician types gave us what we asked for. From what I can tell there IS no hue and cry by the masses for an expensive new HSR system…yet. This may very well change due to market forces (such as the rising price of gas, effecting car, bus and plane travel)…but it ain’t happening this year. Or next year either.

Our system simply doesn’t work that way. When you can convince enough people (either regionally or nationally) that they WANT a HSR system, then we’ll get one. Until then? Not happening, no matter how cool it would be, no matter if it would be cheaper in the long run (if it would be), or more efficient, or green, or whatever. People aren’t going to foot the bill for it unless enough of them want it…and that means no politician is going to seriously push for it until his/her voters indicate that is what they want.

-XT

But that’s where forward-thinking comes in :slight_smile: By the time we’re all clamoring for HSR it’ll be too late. It’ll take years to build and be anti-climactic when it arrives because of the hype that will surround it. Other things that might not be as ideal will fill the void and become acceptable as an alternative in the meantime and we’ll be stuck with half-assed solutions to problems we should have seen coming.

Predicting the future (and especially the publics supposed future needs) is always problematic at best. Best to let the public simply thrash around and figure out what they need themselves than to try and anticipate what they may need a few years from now. JMHO of course.

Personally I think our love affair with the car is what is going to push the world to the next great leap in personal transport technology…and it will be OUR market forces that bring that about. Don’t know if it will be electric, hydrogen or Mr. Fusion…but I think it’s stubborn independence and insistence on cars and personal transport that is going to bring it about. I concede that MMV.

-XT

You’re leaving out actions taken by auto manufacturers, et al, to encourage the use of cars over other transportation modes. WE didn’t make the car dominant, WE were led to do so.

No we weren’t. We (The People) jumped on the car like a trout going for a (whatever it is trout go for). And of course, WWII (and the post war era) encouraged the government to build up the road infrastructure even more than it already was.

-XT

Interesting. Why was the route structured the way it is? Seems like a terrible solution on paper. It seems to marginalize the key route of LA to SF and takes a somewhat roundabout path to connect the two cities. Also it seems like it adds an awful lot of stops in between that would slow down the route to the point where it’s benefits are minimized from a consumer point of view. It seems like it would be much more sensible and cost effective to build a single line between LA and SF and then add extension out to Sacramento instead of creating a 2-pronged extremity from Fresno. Also all the 2-pronged approach out of LA towards Irvine and San Diego respectively seems pointless. A single line to SD makes more sense.

In many ways it seems that the routing around LA is in place to essentially function as a regional commuter network which completely misses the point. SF has the BART and it should be used to connect the East Bay from the main HSR stations Downtown, at SFO and at San Jose. There should be only a few stops in the LA area, Burbank, Downtown LA and Anaheim for example, and then a continuation to San Diego. All those stops to City of Industry and Riverside and Irvine should be served by a local mass transit service.

It seems that the successful model in France is being ignored here but bloating the line with too many stops and too many branches that increases the infrastructure needs without increasing the rider base significantly.

There’s been repeated talk of an HSR link between Edmonton and Calgary. It seems like a natural fit - there’s a huge amount of traffic going between the two, they’re in a pretty flat, straight line, and it’s about 277 km in distance.

And here’s the problem: We already have a 4-lane highway running between the two cities. The flow of traffic on that highway runs 120-130 kilometers per hour. Now do the math: At 120, you can drive between Edmonton and Calgary in about 2.3 hours. A 200 kilometer per hour train can do it in 1.4. But in fact it would run at reduced speeds near the stations and until it was out on open tracks away from the cities. So call it 50 kilometers at 100, and 227 kilometers at 200. So you’re looking at 1.5-1.6 hours. You’re only saving maybe 45 minutes to an hour on the trip. By the time you drive to the station, park, make your way through the terminal, buy your ticket, get on the train, and wait for it to leave, you’ll have eaten that time up. And when you get to your destination you still have to find transportation.

We even shut down a very cheap airline shuttle flight between the two cities because it was under-utilized. They streamlined it as much as they could - you didn’t have to make a reservation, the flights left every hour on the hour, they had streamlined ticket purchases and minimal security.

The flight itself would only take half an hour or so, but by the time you drove to the airport, parked, bought your ticket, got on the plane, waited to take off, landed at the other end, waited to taxi in, and caught a cab or rented a car, it turned out to be just about as long as driving.

I don’t know how familiar you are with California geography, Omniscient, but here are three maps:[ul]
[li]City/road map. [/li][li]Population map.[/li][li]Relief map.[/li][/ul]If you’re building a line from San Francisco to Los Angeles, you have two choices of terrain:[list=a]
[li]Coastal route, mainly following the same route as US Highway 101 and The Southern Pacific Railroad’s Coast Line. The problem is that you have to have lots of curves to get around the mountains, and HSR trains hate curves (tilt trains are an option when one can’t avoid curves, but they are heavier, more expensive, and slower than true TGV-style HSR trains). There’s one unavoidable hilly section at Cuesta (north of San Luis Obispo), but otherwise it’s pretty flat. Still, twisty.[/li][li]Central Valley route, taking advantage of the relatively cheap land and pancake-flatness of the Valley (shown in green on the relief map). There are two sets of hills to traverse – the Diablo Range separating the SF Bay Area from the Central Valley, and the Tehachapi Range between the Valley and the LA Basin. However, TGV-style HSR trains don’t much mind shallow elevation changes, being very light and having a massive power/weight ratio. Also, much of the electricity expended getting them up the hill is regenerated going down the other side. A tunnel near the summit (not cheap, but certainly done all the time in HSR systems) can mean that the train is scarcely slowed down by the mountain range.[/li][/list]The above considerations make a Central Valley routing by far the best choice for the SF<-> LA route.

Okay, moving into finer detail, there are three main areas where choices have to be made:[ol]
[li]SF Bay Area <-> Central Valley. A trans-Bay crossing from downtown SF to Oakland would be too expensive for Phase I, so the line will go down the SF Peninsula using the Caltrain right-of-way (which will be electrified and upgraded, thereby benefitting local commuters as well as HSR riders). There were two options to get through the Diablo Range – either via the Altamont Pass via Livermore (i.e. same as I-680), or via the Pacheco Pass eastwards from Gilroy (i.e. same as Hwy 152). For reasons that are too complex to go into here (but I’ll be happy to expound further on request), the Pacheco Pass has been chosen – this was a very difficult decision, and may yet be overturned.[/li][li]Central Valley. The fastest and cheapest route would just go down the western side of the Valley, next to I-5. However, the major cities of Fresno and Bakersfield are only a few miles east, and are growing by leaps and bounds. Putting HSR through their downtowns won’t add a great deal to the cost or the SF-LA travel time, and brings in lots more riders (and voters!). [/li][li]Central Valley <-> LA Basin. For environmental and geological reasons, the Tehachapi Pass was chosen rather than The Grapevine used by I-5. The easterly routing also lines up well with a stop at Bakersfield, and brings in riders from the Antelope Valley.[/li][/ol]Having several potential city-stops on an HSR route isn’t a disadvantage; such stations would be built with fast “through” tracks so that express trains can pass more local trains without slowing down. So, service would be a mixture of nonstop SF-LA trains, limited-stop expresses, and stopping “locals”. This method serves the maximum number of passengers (and taxpayers!) while still allowing high speeds. So, SF-LA would be 2h38min nonstop, but you’d also be able to get from Fresno (metro pop >1million) and Bakersfield (metro pop 750k) to either SF or LA in less than 90 mins. Since the majority of population growth is happening in the Central Valley, it makes sense to include the Valley cities as HSR stops.

[On the Population map linked to above, one can see the LA megalopolis on the coast in Southern California, with San Diego to the southeast on the Mexican border. The SF Bay Area is two-thirds of the way up the coast with its 7 million people. Going NE from there one finds Sacramento, then in a line to the Southeast are the red blobs of Stockton, Modesto, Fresno, and Bakersfield – millions of customers in a straight line, on flat ground. Too good for an HSR planner to pass up on, and the French would do exactly the same thing with the same choice. If, decades from now, the CA-HSR line is so successful that capacity is stretched, a new West Valley bypass following I-5 might be worth adding on.]

Sacramento branch: Although it might seem logical to build directly from SF to Sac, geography gets in the way again. A tube or bridge crossing the Bay from SF adds a huge amount to the cost, and then there’s still the Diablo Range to traverse, unless one goes along the East Bay shore (like the current Amtrak trains do), but that’s longer and much twistier (bad for HSR). Since the main LA-SF HSR line will already be going through Fresno, it’s much cheaper and quicker to build a spur totally within the Central Valley. In the future – again, if HSR proves to be successful – there will probably be a line from SF to Sac via the Altamont Pass, making the northern part of the network a triangle.

as far as the Anaheim and San Diego extensions are concerned, I think that’s limited by geography (hence track curve radius) and land costs along the Pacific Coast, hence the inland route to San Diego. I’m not as familiar with Southern California as with Northern, however, so I’ll try to look into it some more.

Corrections to preceding post:[ul]
[li]It’s I-580 that goes over the Altamont Pass, not I-680. That was just a typo.[/li][li]Bakersfield to San Francisco would be 1hr 51min by the planned HSR, not “under 90 minutes”. That was a misconception on my part. Still, much faster than driving, and much cheaper (and faster downtown-to-downtown) than flying. [/li][/ul]

You make good points, and clearly have much greater local knowledge than I do. However, I’d point out that the Alberta High-Speed Rail proponents estimate a maximum speed of 240km/hr (150mph), not 200, and a downtown Calgary <-> downtown Edmonton time of 84 minutes. That’s still at the low end of the HSR speed range, but for a 277km end-to-end route it’s probably the most cost-effective option.

It seems that they are heavily promoting the idea of core <-> core business travel, so there would be meeting rooms on board, as well as WiFi (the latter being pretty common on existing HSR systems). Such travelers would have a much more productive trip on HSR than driving, and I guess the important question is how important this core-core business segment would be. I agree with you that suburban Calgary <-> suburban Edmonton travelers might well prefer to drive. I wonder what demographic breakdown figures they’re expecting?

Though I am a fervent supporter of HSR under the right circumstances, I’ll be the first to say that it’s not the best solution in every case, and that the “HSR everywhere, at any cost” extremists tend to do a great disservice to the cause of “moderate” HSR supporters. This is why it’s very important to distinguish between the unrealistic scenarios (such as coast-to-coast HSR in the US – let alone Canada! – at any point in the next few decades) and the best-fit solutions (such as definitely California-HSR, probably Texas-HSR and a Chicago-based network, and possibly Florida-HSR, Pacific NW-HSR, and a “real” HSR on the NorthEast Corridor).

Routine travel by air is going to become increasinlgly less common in the future due to diminuation of petrochemical resources and their added costs to both the operator and the consumer because of this.

I can see air travel operatorsand maybe even their employees panicing about the idea of a national high speed rail network in the U.S. but for the enviroment,the ordinary traveller and the conservation of none replacable resources it is a win/win situation.

The O.P. reminds me of an argument as follows…
Your Lawnmower was already broken when you lent it to me …
And anyway I’ve given it back to you already…

And anyway you said I could keep it…

Plus you never leant me your Lawnmower in the first place…

And it was a crap Lawnmower anyway…

This might be a good time to ask HSR proponents a big question:

What do you see as the major benefit of HSR as opposed to other transportation methods? Why do you support it? Is it because of energy savings? Or to reduce congestion? Or safety? Or something else? And don’t say, “oh, it’s all of those!” I’m looking for a hard answer that we can debate.

For example: “The corridor between city X and city Y currently has X million vehicle miles on roads between them. Serious estimates show that a high speed rail link would aborb X% of that traffic. These are the benefits:”

Too often in these debates, the goodness of HSR is taken as a given, and the debate devolves down into vague discussions of cost and difficulty to build.

For example:

If Las Vegas would really benefit that hugely from an HSR link, why aren’t they building one? Why hasn’t a consortium of Casinos bankrolled the start-up for such a link? Why aren’t they begging for a government ‘partnership’ to do it?

In any large engineering project, the devil is always in the details. You can make anything look like a good idea if you just ignore the details. For example, one of the big problems with high speed rail is that the infrastructure is fixed and limited - you can’t crisscross the country with HSR links like you did with the inter-state highway system, so you have to pick a few major hubs and run links between them at best. And those links are so expensive they are hard to change. And yet, the economy is very dynamic, and traffic patterns change constantly. The traffic flowing into and out of Detroit is a fraction of what it was 20 years ago. Las Vegas has had its ups and downs. A web of roads is efficient because traffic patterns can flow with the economy - a recession in one area lowers traffic, and a boom in another increases it. But rail is inflexible. You could wind up building a 10 billion dollar rail system, only to find that in five years it’s got half the traffic it once had. In the meantime, a boom somewhere else is now causing congestion.

There’s no question that passenger trains are more energy efficient than airplanes and cars. But is that the guiding principle here? If so, we can figure out just how much energy you’d actually save on a typical line over a typical year, and only then can you figure out if this represents a good value for your eco-dollar.

Sam, those are very valid questions, and similar to the ones I ask myself when considering the validity of HSR in the various locations that it’s been proposed. I really appreciate the level-headedness of your approach – people who dismiss HSR out of hand can be really hard to reason with, although in fairness so can rabid pro-HSR types! – and I will be happy to try to answer your issues from the viewpoint of an “HSR proponent”.

However, it’ll take time to do your questions justice, and this is a busy weekend for me. So, I might not get back on this until Monday; however, consider the gauntlet picked up, the challenge accepted, and this post as a placeholder!

Yea, but wouldn’t you have to double track the SB line? I mean, Edmonton, who in the hell wants to go to Edmonton? And if you give people trapped IN Edmonton an easy and cheep way to get to Calgary…who wouldn’t go? :stuck_out_tongue:

Who says the system will be redundant and less used? You? Based on what?

This isn’t rocket science. We plan freeways and airports and all of our other public transport based on projected development and transport patterns. We can do the same for HSR. We can identify the transit corridors where HSR makes the most sense and build it. It won’t be 100% perfectly deployed, but it’s not going to be completely useless either, unless you envision cities like Los Angeles and Las Vegas suddenly disappearing in the next fifty years.

Now, maybe there isn’t really a need for a Cheyenne to Helena link, but maybe there is. But I’m not going to make a determination about the viability of HSR based on nothing more than your say-so.

As for why we should seriously examine building it, our airline infrastructure is overburdened and our freeway system is overburdened in a number of geographical areas. Reducing long haul traffic on these already overburdened systems saves me time and money directly, because that’s less time I have to spend in traffic and less money I have to spend repairing roads.

And finally, if the HSR runs on electricity, then it becomes much simpler to capture pollution (including CO2 emissions) then it is to capture pollution from fleets of airplanes and cars. This is because you only have to capture it at the generating site, rather than trying to capture it on each and every vehicle in the fleet.

The business of a casino is gaming, not investing billions of dollars for transportation projects. This is basic economics, Sam. The efficient thing for a company to do is focus its investment on its core business and related areas. It’s not to invest in radically different business areas, since I, as an investor, can choose to invest in unrelated business areas directly. That’s why a publicly traded casino shouldn’t invest in high-speed rail. Try to get other people to build high-speed rail? Sure. But directly invest in it? No.

And any HSR system in the US is going to be a public-private partnership, because that’s just how we do things here. And there are companies which have been trying to push for a public-private partnership for years now. If CA’s high-speed rail initiative passes, and the state starts taking bids on it, I’m sure there will be plenty of private companies putting in their bids.

One more thing. This is a good idea. Of course, don’t forget to include the cost of externalized pollution (including CO2). And from now on in threads about space flight, I’m sure you’ll be using the same criteria.

While it doesn’t happen every day, private groups have and do build roas or other infrastructure improvements. It’s all in the cost/benefit ration.

I wasn’t talking about private groups in general. I was talking about casinos.

To paraphrase, ‘We hold these truthinesses to be self evident’…that anywhere you could possibly build a HSR system there will certainly be a road between. This is a certainty of one (IOW, it’s happening, ehe?). Also, there is a good chance that there is ALSO a bus route AND probably a plane route between the two target cities as well. At perhaps a slightly lower probability there may or may not also be an existing low speed train route as well. Pretty much the definition of ‘redundant’, ehe? If you disagree with this seemingly logical extrapolation, give me any probable pair of cities that may be linked via HSR in the future in the US that doesn’t have at least one existing link by our current transport system.

As for less used…well, obviously I can’t produce hard facts on the usage of a system that not only hasn’t been built yet but afaik hasn’t even been seriously proposed. My speculation on less used is based on the current road system…afaik nothing competes with our car network for sheer usage from a mass transit perspective. My guess is that a HSR system will be a niche system, used by commuters who are going between cities that are far enough away to discourage using a car/bus/train, and that (in theory at least) cheaper than using a plane. So…a niche system as most people will either use existing subway systems for the majority of their travel…when not simply using a car. So…less used than a car I think is a pretty good conjecture.

I didn’t say it would be useless…that’s your strawman. I said it would be redundant and probably less used. Put another way, it’s NOT rocket science…it’s straight economics. We COULD have such a system on a limited scale…yet we don’t. Why?

BTW, no idea how cities like LA or LV will or won’t disappear because or in spite of HSR one way or the other. That statement is totally out of left field as far as I can tell.

Our current system is overburdened because, well, we LIKE it…and we USE it. Lots. Granted, we COULD build a HSR system to take up some of the load between cities…but the majority of our traffic is within cities and surrounding suburbs. In DC, for instance, the majority of the traffic clogging our roads is commuters coming in from MD, VA and the surrounding areas…not commuting in from NY or Phily.

Again, to put it another way, if it makes economic sense then we will build it. The fact that we haven’t built one yet indicates that not enough people want it badly enough (or think it’s worth the price) to actually build one. Yet.

Well, that’s true enough, and if CO2 emissions become more focused on by the public we may see a market shift that will make HSR, at least on a limited scale, feasible. I guess we’ll see…

-XT

First of all, our projected development and transportation patterns are not very good. If we could predict transportation patterns 10 years from now, we could make a hell of a lot of money buying and selling stocks.

Building an airport and predicting demand for it is much easier than planning a train route. Because the planes can go anywhere. If Las Vegas starts sucking, people will fly more to New Jersey, but they’re all doing it from the same airport using the same infrastructure.

But if you build a train route to Las Vegas, you are bound to get the prediction of future use wrong. Maybe Las Vegas will continue to boom, and you’ll have under-sized the system. Or internet cambling and local casinos wll kill Vegas, and you’ll have a nice 10 billion dollar rail line to a ghost town.

How do you think a bullet train destined for Detroit would have fared had it been built in the 1980’s?

You want to see something interesting? Here’s a table of Flight Movements in Canada, showing the change from one year to the next. You’ll note the overall drop for the airports as a whole was 5%, but some airports saw drops greater than 20%, and other increased. This is one year. try to pedict the absolute numbers for each city 10 years from now, and let’s see how you do. Now if you dig further into each individual route, you’d see huge variance. And it’s not that predictable. No one knew what Vegas was going to become 30 years ago. No one knew Detroit would be shrinking fast.

If you crisscross rails on all the most congested routes today, all you’re doing is fixing a snapshot in time. Your rail system is built for the America of 2008, and the America of 2028 may need something quite different.

Highways can handle this because A) there are a lot more of them, B) they are cheaper to operate so you can tolerate a lot of variability in demand, and C) it’s relatively easy to build more of them if you need, and the old ones don’t represent as much sunk cost.

There are lots of interstate road regions that are severely under-utilized today, and others that are gridlocked. That’s because they were designed for the America of 1960.

This is a big problem with rail, as far as I am concerned. I think rail also has a distortionary effect, because the rail line often becomes the political or economic justification for locating homes and businesses in places they’d rather not be.