# A neat short video. The view from various spots on Earth, if we had a Saturn like Ring system. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 21, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384 "2009-11-21T07:06:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/21 "2009-11-22T23:33:48Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > After seeing the video, I am all in favor of this course of action. With our luck we’d just end up pushing it and its inhabitants on a long and unlikely cruise through the galaxy for a while. Besides, what do we have that we could use? It’s not like there’s a large depository of fissionable material up there. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/22 "2009-11-23T00:25:46Z")
I wonder how much this would have an effect on earlier civilizations. I’d want to travel to “see where they start from”. Additionally, it’s almost 100% obvious that the earth is round from those images. How would that affect scientific progress surrounding that? Would there be so much ambient light from them at night to make early astronomical observations difficult/impossible? ---
**Author:** ![GESancMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gesancman/32/2923_2.png) [@GESancMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GESancMan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/23 "2009-11-23T02:17:48Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Additionally, it’s almost 100% obvious that the earth is round from those images. How would that affect scientific progress surrounding that? I’m not sure people would have made that connection. They’d have probably thought of the ring system as a rainbow; I can see people leaving on expeditions to find one of the “ends”, never to return. “Damn, it must be farther away than we thought!” > [@](#): > > Would there be so much ambient light from them at night to make early astronomical observations difficult/impossible? I think so. Very few stars would be visible, and it’s entirely possible the planets would be difficult - if not impossible - to see, due either to the light from the ring system or being obscured by it. We probably wouldn’t think there’s much out there, and as a result our knowledge of astronomy would only be a fraction of what it is in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/24 "2009-11-23T15:20:50Z")
In winter, you’d be seeing the non-illuminated side of the rings, so depending on their thickness and density, perhaps they wouldn’t cause too much light pollution at night? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/25 "2009-11-23T16:05:44Z")
I’m envisioning people looking up at the rings and going “Have you seen all the stars in the Hubble photos? Could you just _imagine_ what it would be like to see stars from the surface of the earth?! I have an idea- let’s put all the ring particles together and _make a moon!!_” ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/26 "2009-11-23T16:09:44Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > In winter, you’d be seeing the non-illuminated side of the rings, so depending on their thickness and density, perhaps they wouldn’t cause too much light pollution at night? The non-illuminated side? You mean, like, the bottom? Interesting. I wonder how cold it would get living in the shadow of the rings. Would plants die off? Imagine the massive hurricanes that would form as cold air from the shadow sinks and drifts out along the sea while hot air from juuuuuust outside the shadow rushes in to replace it. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/27 "2009-11-23T16:13:47Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Maybe not at some point during the day, but for days at a time, given that the shadow of the rings would travel up and down the surface of the Earth in concert with its rotation around the Sun. Wouldn’t it be more like months at a time? I would think that winters in Mexico, northern Africa, and India would be drastically different. Same with parts of South America, Australia, and southern Africa. Having absolutely no sunlight (or a greatly reduced amount of it) for a couple of months out of the year – How would that affect crops? How cold would it get? Would that have hugely affected the evolution of humanity? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/28 "2009-11-23T16:26:30Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > The non-illuminated side? You mean, like, the bottom? Interesting. > > I wonder how cold it would get living in the shadow of the rings. Would plants die off? Imagine the massive hurricanes that would form as cold air from the shadow sinks and drifts out along the sea while hot air from juuuuuust outside the shadow rushes in to replace it. Again, it might depend on the size and distance from Earth of the rings, but if they were as in the video, I don’t think there’d be anywhere that was in darkness for protracted periods. The shadow is curved with respect to lines of latitude. In winter, at some latitudes you’d be in the ring shadow around noon, at others you might have two periods of ring shadow, either side of noon, and further towards the equator it might just make night a bit longer. Certainly all this would cause an amount of cooling, though. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/29 "2009-11-23T16:53:49Z")
> [@GESancMan](#): > > I’m not sure people would have made that connection. They’d have probably thought of the ring system as a rainbow; I can see people leaving on expeditions to find one of the “ends”, never to return. “Damn, it must be farther away than we thought!” ISTR a character in **Ringworld** doing exactly that, going in search of the base of the “Arch” and never finding it. There’d be some pretty pervasive myths regarding the Ring, _especially_ if it came with rocks falling from it on a sufficiently frequent basis; likewise the Shadow. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/30 "2009-11-23T17:14:11Z")
> [@GESancMan](#): > > I’m not sure people would have made that connection. They’d have probably thought of the ring system as a rainbow; I can see people leaving on expeditions to find one of the “ends”, never to return. “Damn, it must be farther away than we thought!” I think they’d figure it out when the earth cast shadows on the rings that were always a part of a circle. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/31 "2009-11-23T17:28:42Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > [pouts] Now I wanna planetary ring system! > > Of course that means that it’s time to… > _Blow up the Moon!_ > [@CrazyChop](#): > > If we blow up the moon to get a ring, would there be any changes to the tidal effects? Like everything else worth asking, [The Master](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2362/i-plan-to-destroy-the-moon-what-effect-would-this-have-on-the-earth) has already answered your question. I believe now that you asked a question he already answered, some sort of payment to Cecil is involved, but, still being new, I don’t know what it is nor what his proclivities are … > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > If they really did exist they’d be emblazoned with “COKE,” the Nike swoosh, etc. [Like this?](http://theinfosphere.org/images/9/98/Wormulon.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![GESancMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gesancman/32/2923_2.png) [@GESancMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GESancMan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/32 "2009-11-23T18:58:07Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I think they’d figure it out when the earth cast shadows on the rings that were always a part of a circle. I’m sure the scientific thinkers would have put it together, yes - and probably earlier. But as far as the general populace… I don’t think the religious powers-that-be would let a little thing like visual evidence get in the way of their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/33 "2009-11-23T19:27:31Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Wouldn’t it be more like months at a time? For simplicity’s sake, let’s start with assuming that the Earth’s ring is exactly aligned with the equator, and all other factors (axial tilt, orbital and rotational speed, etc.) are exactly as they are now. We’ll start with the vernal equinox, where the Earth’s equator lies parallel to the orbital plane and the Sun appears directly overhead - and therefore no ring shadow. From there the shadow travels southward to straddle the Tropic of Cancer 90 days later, then starts its journey northward to the equator 90 days after that, then to the Tropic of Capricorn after another 90 days, and then back to the equator after the last 90-day period. Given that a degree of latitude equals roughly 111 kilometers, the shadow travels approximately 2608 km over 90 days, or 28 km/day. If the ring’s shadow were more than 28 km wide, there would obviously be places sitting under the shadow for more than a day. If we had rings the size of some of [Saturn’s](http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Saturn&Display=Rings) major rings, then there’d be no doubt the hemisphere on the other side of the rings from the Sun would have a very dark winter indeed. But it’s all subjective, so either one of us could be right. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/34 "2009-11-23T19:55:42Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > If the ring’s shadow were more than 28 km wide, I’m thinking that it would have to be, at least during the shortest days of winter. But I’m having a hard time visualizing exactly how it would work, especially given the curvature thing that **Ximenean** mentioned. I’m tempted to cut out some cardboard rings, dust off my globe, and sit near a strong light. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/35 "2009-11-24T00:44:34Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m thinking that it would have to be, at least during the shortest days of winter. But I’m having a hard time visualizing exactly how it would work, especially given the curvature thing that **Ximenean** mentioned. > > I’m tempted to cut out some cardboard rings, dust off my globe, and sit near a strong light. Consider this: The width of the shadow changes as the tilt vis-a-vie the sun changes. During the extremes, the width of the rings (as viewed from the poles- you know, the long way) would project a shadow much longer than it would at the equinox which would match the width of the rings when viewed edge-on (you know, the short way). So some numbers: Saturn is 60km in radius. The rings are at 7k-80k above the surface. So since earth is 6km wide (r), then the rings would float at an amazing .7km above the surface. Forget about physics for now, as that’s why we don’t have rings in the first place. The rings would extend up to 8k from the surface. Now, the sun goes 23 degrees above the equator, and 23 below. Now I need some math help. I don’t know the easiest way to project a shadow from a light source infinitely far away on to a circle/sphere. The tan\*8km of the 23 degrees is 3.44km. So that’s how far south the shadow would stretch if the earth was a square instead of a circle. So how far south does it go, since the earth is a sphere? Neglibibly more? Also, I’ve now realized that at noon, the ice ball overhead casts a shadow on you, while at sunset, the ice ball to the west of you casts the shadow. Does that matter? I can’t figure it out right now, as I’m out of time and my head asploded. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/36 "2009-11-24T02:21:03Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So some numbers: Saturn is 60km in radius. The rings are at 7k-80k above the surface. So since earth is 6km wide (r), then the rings would float at an amazing .7km above the surface. Forget about physics for now, as that’s why we don’t have rings in the first place. The rings would extend up to 8k from the surface. Now, the sun goes 23 degrees above the equator, and 23 below. Uh, do you mean Saturn is 60,000km in radius? 'Cause 60km isn’t very far… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/37 "2009-11-24T07:45:06Z")
That animation proves something I’d suspected for a long time: a ringed Earth would be the most awesome thing possible. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/38 "2009-11-24T18:55:35Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Uh, do you mean Saturn is 60,000km in radius? 'Cause 60km isn’t very far… Err, yeah. I meant to put “60k km”. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/39 "2009-11-24T20:24:22Z")
OK, I’ve spent all day doing the math for this ring system. First, the constants: Saturn radius: 60,000 km Saturn rings: Main ring (A) ends at 136,775 km from center of Saturn Earth radius: 6,400 km Earth axial tilt, thus Sun angle at solstice: 23.3 degrees (shoulda used 23.5, I think) 136,775:60,000 :: X : 6400 X=14589, the “altitude” at the tip of our ring system from center of the earth. Graph Circle A [earth] with radius 6400 at (0,0). Point B [north pole] at (6400, 0) and point C [tip of ring] at (0, 14589). This gives a graph where the y-axis is the ring system running east to west, and the x-axis is the Earth’s axis. So it’s a sideways Earth. The equation for the earth is easy: x^2+y^2=6400^2. The line takes some work, but is nonetheless straightforward. tan(23.3 deg)=.43. Inverting this yields 2.3. So the equation for the line is: y=-2.3x+14589. I tried calculating the intercept by hand but I couldn’t get it to work, so i graphed it online. The intercept point is (4270, 4766). That X is the important part, as it’s the km above the horizon. 4270/6400 \* 90 degrees = 60.047 deg latitude. Grand finale: The tip of the shadow will reach Anchorage, Oslo, and St Petersberg, Russia on the winter solstice before turning around and heading back south. The best place to see this event in the southern hemisphere is a tiny, tiny group of islands at -59.4674, -27.1911, off the coast of Antarctica/Argentina. The “inside” edge of the shadow will oscillate 180 miles or so north and south of the equator, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384/40 "2009-11-24T21:39:37Z")
So an Earth ring system proportional to Saturn’s would pretty much cover everything except a small band around the equator and the Arctic circle? Forget life, this planet’s frozen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-neat-short-video-the-view-from-various-spots-on-earth-if-we-had-a-saturn-like-ring-system/518384.md?page=3)