A new American Civil War....possible?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
And the fewer guns you have in private hands, the more likely that nutters will be the only ones to get their hands on them.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll agree with that, but I don’t see how it matters.

The more guns you have in private hands, the more likely nutters will get hold of them. It is cheaper nicking a gun than buying an import.

Do you envisage a vigilante society in which everybody carries a gun ?

Currently in the UK, there is a mandatory 5 year penalty for anyone carrying an illegal gun if they are over 21. They are talking about reducing the age cutoff to 18 which is supremely dim as 15 year olds are packing the things.

Personally I would reduce the cutoff age to 5 and drop them down a mineshaft.

My only qualm is that people would get ‘fitted up’.

42

[QUOTE=FRDE]
I’ll agree with that, but I don’t see how it matters.

The more guns you have in private hands, the more likely nutters will get hold of them. It is cheaper nicking a gun than buying an import.

Do you envisage a vigilante society in which everybody carries a gun ?

Currently in the UK, there is a mandatory 5 year penalty for anyone carrying an illegal gun if they are over 21. They are talking about reducing the age cutoff to 18 which is supremely dim as 15 year olds are packing the things.

Personally I would reduce the cutoff age to 5 and drop them down a mineshaft.

My only qualm is that people would get ‘fitted up’.
[/QUOTE]

My impression is that the vast majority of criminal use of a firearm in the UK is from imported firearms? Handguns are illegal to posses and have been for awhile. Rifles and shotguns must be kept under rigorous security measures that are subject to Police inspection and approval. Seems like the nicking problem would be for already illegally held arms?

43

[QUOTE=FRDE]
Do you envisage a vigilante society in which everybody carries a gun ?
[/QUOTE]

Envision it? I live in one.

44

This book is based on a premise similar to xtisme’s, where a slow increase in internal tensions and a series of nuclear attacks precipitate a civil war. In this case, prominent celebrity conversions to Islam and the failure of the War on Terror prompt many to convert to Islam, and when a series of nuclear detonoations in major cities (including Washington and Mecca), blamed on Zionist extremists, lead to a takeover by a moderate Muslim government. The South (“Bible belt”) refuses to acknowledge this government, and breaks away, resulting in open hostilities which lead to a longstanding cold war.

45

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Envision it? I live in one.
[/QUOTE]

Where?

46

[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
My impression is that the vast majority of criminal use of a firearm in the UK is from imported firearms? Handguns are illegal to posses and have been for awhile. Rifles and shotguns must be kept under rigorous security measures that are subject to Police inspection and approval. Seems like the nicking problem would be for already illegally held arms?
[/QUOTE]

As things currently stand, you are right, hand guns and machine pistols are not legal we got a bit nervous of weopons

Getting into a gun cabinet is not a major problem, duct tape and a baseball bat is one method.

My WAG is that the majority of cut down shot guns are nicked, other weopons are re-activated ‘replicas’, stuff that was never registered, later military ‘souvenirs’ and ‘imports’.

47

[QUOTE=FRDE]
I’ll agree with that, but I don’t see how it matters.

The more guns you have in private hands, the more likely nutters will get hold of them. It is cheaper nicking a gun than buying an import.
[/quote]

It’s also cheaper to use a kitchen knife or a cricket bat or a screwdriver.

Here’s the thing: Guns require a fair amount of training to use effectively. If you found, say, a Lee-Enfield rifle, magazine, and bolt, all separately, you’d have a fairly hard time working out how to put it all together. Never mind working out where to get ammunition from, or how to use it with any degree of accuracy.

Take a .455 Webley revolver. Obtaining .455 Webley ammo is almost impossible, even if you can legally own the revolver. Exactly one firm makes the ammunition commercially (Fiocchi), and it’s extremely specialist and very expensive. Good luck finding calibres like 7.63mm Mauser, .380" Mk IIz (AKA .38/200), .44 Russian, .450 Adams, .577/450 Martini-Henry, .577 Snider, .476 Enfield … you get the idea*.

If you’re ever in Australia, I’d be more than happy to take you to the range so you can actually fire a gun and get some idea what’s involved in responsible and legal firearms use. We’re not crazy, we’re not paranoid survivalists, and you’d probably be quite surprised to find out how many people legally own guns, but don’t talk about it, primarily because of that sort of attitude.

No, and I don’t recall ever even implying that I did.

I know there are a couple of cottage industry businesses that make this ammo, but I don’t think they really count since you can’t walk into your local gunshop and buy these calibres off the shelf.

48

[QUOTE=FRDE]
As things currently stand, you are right, hand guns and machine pistols are not legal we got a bit nervous of weopons

Getting into a gun cabinet is not a major problem, duct tape and a baseball bat is one method.

My WAG is that the majority of cut down shot guns are nicked, other weopons are re-activated ‘replicas’, stuff that was never registered, later military ‘souvenirs’ and ‘imports’.
[/QUOTE]

To be granted a FAC or SAC in the UK, you’ll need far better security than glass.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ERO/records/ho415/1/ppd/oppu/fahbk.htm goes into the many required aspects of the safe storage of firearms.

A look at the minimally accepted secure gun safe: http://www.brattonsound.co.uk/sentinel.html

Keep in mind that the police actually inspect before granting the certificate and conduct inspections after the certificate has been granted.

49

[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
Where?
[/QUOTE]

Little place north of the Rio Grande, south of the Great White North.

More specifically, in the Deep South. And yes, I was exaggerating. But folks sure do love their guns here, and recent initiatives for a “shoot first” law and another to allow concealed weapons in vehicles (without a CCW permit) make that even more clear.

50

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Little place north of the Rio Grande, south of the Great White North.

More specifically, in the Deep South. And yes, I was exaggerating. But folks sure do love their guns here, and recent initiatives for a “shoot first” law and another to allow concealed weapons in vehicles (without a CCW permit) make that even more clear.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds more like freedom and protection from overzealous anti-gun prosecutors to me than vigilantism. I live in West Texas. We love our guns too. :smiley:

51

[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
Sounds more like freedom and protection from overzealous anti-gun prosecutors to me than vigilantism.
[/QUOTE]

True; vigilantism implies taking your own revenge on someone who’s harmed you in some way.

If the “shoot first” law passes, I’ll be able to blow the guy away before he’s even had a chance to do anything, which should save a lot of time.

52

[QUOTE=spoke-]
At that point, the Dark Lord Cheney would emerge from his undisclosed location and rule us all with his Sneer of Power.
[/QUOTE]

I could see him petting a white cat and laughing maniacally.

53

Uhhh, Mr Cheney, I think you’re holding that cat a little tightly around his neck…I don’t think he can breathe like that, sir…Mr Cheney, if you would just stop laughing for a minute…somebody turn off the cameras

54

I started writing a blockbuster novel about 20 years ago (now stop laughing, damnit, I really did start writing it – even have a few bits and pieces salvaged on my computer!) about an east-west split over regional differences. My inspiration was what TIME magazine in 1980 called the “Sagebrush Rebellion” starring our own then-governor Dick Lamm. I started outlining the book after Lamm left office, but I corresponded with him on the idea and he made some suggestions.

I think a factional civil war would be less possible (although a lot of American dystopian lit has come from this kind of premise.) I’d love to see someone actually write a novel about a regional civil war (again, I think the east-west model would be the most plausible) and I’d like to see the rebels win, if only because the sequel would deal with building a whole new democracy on the North American continent, and what form that government would take.

So, Tristan, have you thought seriously about writing this? Because if so, I have some info on water issues and some ideas on how the conflict might develop I’d love to share with you.

55

[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
It’s also cheaper to use a kitchen knife or a cricket bat or a screwdriver.
[/quote]

I sold off my old collection of swords, bayonets and Kukris about a year ago, but I kept the most functional ones - one of which, oddly, was my father’s boy scout knife in about 1940. Next time I’m burgled I’ll reduce future crime statistics.
[/quote]

[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
Here’s the thing: Guns require a fair amount of training to use effectively. If you found, say, a Lee-Enfield rifle, magazine, and bolt, all separately, you’d have a fairly hard time working out how to put it all together. Never mind working out where to get ammunition from, or how to use it with any degree of accuracy.

Take a .455 Webley revolver. Obtaining .455 Webley ammo is almost impossible, even if you can legally own the revolver. Exactly one firm makes the ammunition commercially (Fiocchi), and it’s extremely specialist and very expensive. Good luck finding calibres like 7.63mm Mauser, .380" Mk IIz (AKA .38/200), .44 Russian, .450 Adams, .577/450 Martini-Henry, .577 Snider, .476 Enfield … you get the idea*.

If you’re ever in Australia, I’d be more than happy to take you to the range so you can actually fire a gun and get some idea what’s involved in responsible and legal firearms use. We’re not crazy, we’re not paranoid survivalists, and you’d probably be quite surprised to find out how many people legally own guns, but don’t talk about it, primarily because of that sort of attitude.
[/QUOTE]

Good chance I’ll be in Oz - I’m about to be pretty footloose.
My pistol firing technique is slightly unorthodox.

Thing is that what works in one place does not work in an urban environment, and I am not keen on guns in the hands of our urban populace.