# A new atheist's regrets **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 16, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626 "2011-04-16T17:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/41 "2011-04-18T00:38:48Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > ahem… > OK, so you found a new path in life. That’s cool. But you have fallen into the recent convert - true believer trap in that you think that you have found THE WAY. You ever talk to a recently converted vegetarian? One who believes that if only we were all vegetarians than all the world’s environmental problems would be solved? Vegetarianism is the only intelligent way. Or a recently converted communist? One who believes that there would be no injustice if the world if governments converted to communism? Communism is the only intelligent way. It’s tiresome. “I’m smarter than most, and if everybody would just follow THE WAY that I have recently found, the world would be so much better” is an attitude that is not only naive - it’s not going to earn you any friends or respect. How can I have found a way? Atheism is not a “way”. It is simply not believing in a god or gods. There are a metric fuckton of atheist who will spen their lives and fortunes effectively playing skee-ball in the arcade of life. Just because they (or I) are atheists doesn’t mean they have the keys to moving humanity forward. When I say we would be living among the starts right now I am speaking figuratively. I mean we would be be leaps and bounds ahead of where we are today. Case in point is my former pastor. He is brilliant. He speaks English, French, Austrian German, Spanish, and reads Coine Greek and Hebrew. He is a phenominal guitar player and song writer. I mean…he is stellar. I wonder what he could have contributed to humanity if he was not dedicating 10-20 hours to studying ancient texts and attempting to convey some nugget of truth therein to a sleepy group of sheep. But no, I have found no “way”, only that religion is not a legitimate “way”. Perhaps I am going recent-convert syndrome. I will ask that you allow me that. I am sure I will get over the hump soon enough. And I know my tone was haughty, and I did not mean for it to be, and I ask your pardon for that, too. So we agree that the tone of my OP leaves much to be desired. But would you care to take issue with what I said, if you can look past the poor way in which I said it? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/42 "2011-04-18T00:54:23Z")
**Newcrasher** , The point about “the way” is not about atheism, per se. It’s the same as vegetarianism is not a “way” in that it is just not eating meat. But if you blame all the world’s problems on meat, you are going to end up sounding like a self righteous ass. You are even writing off your pastor’s contribution to society, merely because of a single subject that he studies. It wasn’t religion that taught him how to speak all those languages, and it’s not religion that’s keeping him from studying physics. Your argument is absurd even at it’s base. You are putting forth the idea that if people didn’t study subject X, then we would have made greater strides in subjects Y and Z. It is bias against a prticular subject that is clouding your judgement. You could just as easily use your logic to argue that if people didn’t waste their time with studying literature, they would study physics and we would be “among the stars”. Quit blaming a single human endeavor for all of societies ills. It’s naive. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/43 "2011-04-18T01:28:29Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > **Newcrasher** , The point about “the way” is not about atheism, per se. It’s the same as vegetarianism is not a “way” in that it is just not eating meat. But if you blame all the world’s problems on meat, you are going to end up sounding like a self righteous ass. You are even writing off your pastor’s contribution to society, merely because of a single subject that he studies. It wasn’t religion that taught him how to speak all those languages, and it’s not religion that’s keeping him from studying physics. > > Your argument is absurd even at it’s base. You are putting forth the idea that if people didn’t study subject X, then we would have made greater strides in subjects Y and Z. It is bias against a prticular subject that is clouding your judgement. You could just as easily use your logic to argue that if people didn’t waste their time with studying literature, they would study physics and we would be “among the stars”. > > Quit blaming a single human endeavor for all of societies ills. It’s naive. Vegetarianism is not ameatism. It is a “way” of eating wherein you consume food that is not meat. Atheism is not choosing a diffent way to theologize, it is choosing not to theologize. The food equivalent would be not eating. I never said religion is the cause of all of societies ills. You have been around here long enough that I would expect better than such an absurd straw man from you. Ironically I did go to church today because my kids were singing. Sitting in the back of that room I saw people I used to work very closely with on church projects. These are doctors, engineers, nurses, teachers, researchers, businessmen and women…you would be amazed at how many hours a week is spent at worship/Sunday school (3 hours on Sunday), bible study (1hour Sunday night), various committee meetings (2 hours Monday nights), church dinner and bible study (2 hours wednesday night), not to mention the various special events that fill each week. This doesn’t include the time it takes a paid and staff with graduate degrees to plan these services, and youth activities, and pancake breakfasts etc. Add to that a budget that is over $1 million annually (80% goes to staff pay and the mortgage), and yeah, I think if it were not for religion these smart people would be doing better things with their time. Are they all going to find the cure for cancer or male pattern baldness? No, but their would be a lot more brainpower and money available to try. Certainly there will be leisure activities and not everything has to be about finding the best way to terra-form Mars, but I cannot find a greater example of smart people idling away their time than church. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/44 "2011-04-18T01:47:18Z")
You are doing it again. You are assuming that just because you don’t like it, it is inherently worthless and a waste of time. That is incredibly self centered. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/45 "2011-04-18T02:02:40Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > You are doing it again. You are assuming that just because you don’t like it, it is inherently worthless and a waste of time. That is incredibly self centered. I’ve been there. It is a tremendous waste of time. We can just disagree on that. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/46 "2011-04-18T02:05:40Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > It was study like that that made me an agnostic, not an atheist. Atheists are just as wrong as believers, just 180 degrees opposed. > > No one knows if a god of any kind exists. Period. Those who say they do are lying if they cannot provide conclusive proof of that existence. I do not know if a god of any kind exists. Period. I _believe_ that no god of any kind exists, and find the concept silly. I _believe_ I understand the truth of the situation, even though I agree I can’t prove that my truth (no god) is the ultimate truth. We’re all pretty much limited to only the strength of our own opinions on this one. I don’t think I’m any more wrong than you are, but I think believers are very wrong. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/47 "2011-04-18T02:17:39Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > I’ve been there. It is a tremendous waste of time. We can just disagree on that. Hey, I don’t go to church. However, I’m not foolish enough to think that the people who do go don’t get something out of it. It could be fellowship, business contacts, community outreach, gossip, whatever. Meeting with a bunch of your neighbors has got to be better than staying home and watching TV. It is the height of arrogance to believe that someone could have contributed more to humanity if only they just didn’t participate in an activity or study that holds no interest for you. That arrogance is what I and others are calling you on in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/48 "2011-04-18T02:37:26Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Hey, I don’t go to church. However, I’m not foolish enough to think that the people who do go don’t get something out of it. It could be fellowship, business contacts, community outreach, gossip, whatever. Meeting with a bunch of your neighbors has got to be better than staying home and watching TV. It is the height of arrogance to believe that someone could have contributed more to humanity if only they just didn’t participate in an activity or study that holds no interest for you. That arrogance is what I and others are calling you on in this thread. It’s not just an activity that doesn’t interest me. Knitting doesn’t interest me. But I see how it is productive. And it doesn’t take the collective brainpower of so many people and harness it to puzzle over an unenlightened worldview, sing sings to a man in the sky, and collect vast sums of money in the process. I think if these people were not distracted by such a silly structure and belief system that burns up so much of their time and resources, some of them would do great things for society. You may disagree. But I don’t think it is arrogant. I am not saying it is holds back people’s potential because I dont have interest in it. I am saying it holds back people’s potential because it discourages critical thought, encourages closed mindedness and bigotry, is generally suspicious of science and is the one of the last segments of society to embrace equal rights on many fronts. If these people were not trapped in lsuch a warped time-suck and money trap, society would be much better off. Edited to add: You can find community, gossip, business contacts, and whatever else have you without invoking an invisible sky king. Just because people get something out of it does not mean it is good for society. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/49 "2011-04-18T02:39:41Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > This… needed to be said. > > Maybe in another six months your atheism won’t seem so much like a divine revelation. Mostly mine just makes me sad. I’ve been a hardcore atheist for 14 years. My atheism never makes me sad. In fact, the world is so much more beautiful and exciting than anything religion ever tried to teach me. Baby atheists, your atheism doesn’t have to make you bitter and sad. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/50 "2011-04-18T02:41:52Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Certainly there will be leisure activities and not everything has to be about finding the best way to terra-form Mars, but I cannot find a greater example of smart people idling away their time than church. You mean like [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre)? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/51 "2011-04-18T02:58:14Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You mean like [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre)? More like like [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton). ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/52 "2011-04-18T03:08:26Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > This… needed to be said. > > Maybe in another six months your atheism won’t seem so much like a divine revelation. Mostly mine just makes me sad. When I first realized I was atheist I was sad as well but it seems quite a bit more wonderful now. I’m not one of those pushy, annoying atheists but I did go through a period like the OP, wishing I hadn’t wasted so much time trying to understand why my religion found such odd things acceptable or even worth all that praise. I tried really hard to believe because I did feel like life without my god would be horribly sad. But it’s not at all sad. It’s hard to give up certain ideas, like the possibility that I’ll be with my mom again in some way. But I’m way more in to reality than hopeful for an afterlife. Anyway, I know where the OP is coming from. I wish I’d not wasted so much of my life on pointless study in something that isn’t true when there are so many cool things out there to learn more about. For a good 20 years of my life I was somewhat obsessed with learning about my god in order to better serve him. Sims 2 would have been more worthy of my time. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/53 "2011-04-18T03:09:51Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > you would be amazed at how many hours a week is spent at worship/Sunday school (3 hours on Sunday), bible study (1hour Sunday night), various committee meetings (2 hours Monday nights), church dinner and bible study (2 hours wednesday night), not to mention the various special events that fill each week. > [@newcrasher](#): > > I am saying it holds back people’s potential because it discourages critical thought, encourages closed mindedness and bigotry, is generally suspicious of science and is the one of the last segments of society to embrace equal rights on many fronts. If these people were not trapped in lsuch a warped time-suck and money trap, society would be much better off. But none of this necessarily has anything to do with believing in or following Jesus. As a Christian, I agree that the enormous amounts of time, effort, and money that are spent on religious activities can be, and often are, an enormous waste; and I, personally, find a lot of it a turn-off and am sympathetic to your point of view here. (Although, as others have pointed out, the same can be said for many secular activities.) And _some_ religious people can indeed be closed-minded, bigoted, etc. But there is nothing about belief in God in general, or Christianity in particular, that is inherently opposed to critical-thinking, open-mindedness, pursuit of science or of equal rights, or any other real virtue you’d want to embrace. I can say this confidently from experience, and if you disagree with me, you ust haven’t encountered the right Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/54 "2011-04-18T03:12:49Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Yeah I did come off as a prick. Didn’t mean too. I can always count on Dopers to keep each other honest. You didn’t come off as a prick at all to me, but then I understood exactly where you are coming from. All I can say is just don’t waste any more of your time. Don’t try to poke holes in other people’s religions; don’t go looking for arguments to prove your position, don’t crap all over some of your religious friends’ PTL moments or you’ll only regret it, and to take in every moment and experience for what it is. The time wasn’t really wasted; you were just learning what to reject. That can only be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/55 "2011-04-18T03:52:32Z")
Why is it that atheists are always supposed to keep their mouths shut while theists can spew their bullshit all they want? I don’t go around challenging theists or opening my mouth much about it IRL, but I don’t get the attitude that it’s rude for atheists to say what they think, but not for theists. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/56 "2011-04-18T04:20:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why is it that atheists are always supposed to keep their mouths shut while theists can spew their bullshit all they want? > > I don’t go around challenging theists or opening my mouth much about it IRL, but I don’t get the attitude that it’s rude for atheists to say what they think, but not for theists. Yes, that’s EXACTLY what people here are saying. :rolleyes: (Dude, I don’t care what you believe, or don’t believe. Just don’t be a dick about it – in this case, claiming you’re SOOOOO much more enlightened than everyone else.) ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/57 "2011-04-18T04:35:24Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > It was study like that that made me an agnostic, not an atheist. Atheists are just as wrong as believers, just 180 degrees opposed. > > No one knows if a god of any kind exists. Period. Those who say they do are lying if they cannot provide conclusive proof of that existence. Atheism and Agnosticism are exactly the same thing. You are arguing against a class of people who, by and large, do not exist. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/58 "2011-04-18T06:12:37Z")
I want to address **newcrasher** one more time. I may not be the best guy to take advice from in how you live with your new found atheism, but I think you should at least think about this. I’m a theist in the truest sense of the world, I believe in God, but I have no idea what shape he takes, or really anything about Him or Her. The fact is, I don’t think about it much. You, however, are in a stage in your atheism where you are thinking about it constantly. For all their bluster about not believing in God, too many atheists can’t get past the concept. That’s wasted time and brain power. Everything in life becomes about _not_ believing in God, and it ends up defining them. Define yourself in terms of who you want to be, not in terms of who you don’t want to be. ---
**Author:** ![Crackrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Crackrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crackrat)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/59 "2011-04-18T06:15:53Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Atheism and Agnosticism are exactly the same thing. You are arguing against a class of people who, by and large, do not exist. No, Atheism and Agnosticism are entirely orthogonal. One is your belief in a god or gods, one is your certainty of that belief. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626/60 "2011-04-18T06:59:30Z")
> [@Crackrat](#): > > No, Atheism and Agnosticism are entirely orthogonal. One is your belief in a god or gods, one is your certainty of that belief. That’s really not how this works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-atheists-regrets/578626.md?page=4)