# A New Form of Government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948 "2016-03-23T13:58:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/21 "2016-03-23T19:35:14Z")
Here’s a [map](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/2012nationwidecountymapshadedbypercentagewon.svg) of the 2012 election results by county, shaded by percentage won. Exactly where can you draw those peaceful secession lines? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/22 "2016-03-23T19:40:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Nope. I’ll say many of the social conflicts created by democracy would fade away. Abortion, immigration, “gun control”, and many others would not be nationwide issues. In what possible ‘nation’ would no one disagree on any of these issues? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/23 "2016-03-23T19:55:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In what possible ‘nation’ would no one disagree on any of these issues? Did I say nobody would disagree? If so, when and where? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/24 "2016-03-23T19:56:33Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Here’s a [map](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/2012nationwidecountymapshadedbypercentagewon.svg) of the 2012 election results by county, shaded by percentage won. Exactly where can you draw those peaceful secession lines? I’m not a central planner. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/25 "2016-03-23T20:01:31Z")
> [@Totenfeier](#): > > It seems that almost everybody is unhappy with the American government these days […] most people think that the attempt to call a new Constitutional Convention in today’s climate would be a) extremely difficult I presume that it would extremely difficult because it wouldn’t be popular, which seems to contradict your statement that people aren’t happy with the government. And they should be unhappy with the government. That’s when government is at its best. “A good diplomatic agreement is one with which all parties are equally dissatisfied.” -Georges Bidault ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/26 "2016-03-23T20:02:18Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Did I say nobody would disagree? If so, when and where? Then how would they cease to be “nationwide issues”? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/27 "2016-03-23T20:09:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > if that is so, those countries should also pursue a policy of peaceful secession. Look, this “I’m not a central planner but everyone should secede” thing is logical nonsense, and I can’t help but think you know it. If the answer to every dispute is secession then eventually there’s no nations at all, as everyone has seceded into their own personal kingdom, and armed gangs will run amok enslaving the weak and it’s Mad Max everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/28 "2016-03-23T20:09:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then how would they cease to be “nationwide issues”? If a few souls were mad about abortion being legal in the area, they might move a few miles up the road. Otherwise I don’t think such a scenario would merit them being called “issues”. I know people who dislike flip-flops. It’s not a nationwide issue. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/29 "2016-03-23T20:11:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Look, this “I’m not a central planner but everyone should secede” thing is logical nonsense, and I can’t help but think you know it. If the answer to every dispute is secession then eventually there’s no nations at all, as everyone has seceded into their own personal kingdom, and armed gangs will run amok enslaving the weak and it’s Mad Max everywhere. Scary. No, but I do encourage secession in many cases. I will not display the incalculable hubris it would take to pretend I know where the boundaries should be. It’s not a cure-all. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/30 "2016-03-23T20:32:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Scary. > > No, but I do encourage secession in many cases. I will not display the incalculable hubris it would take to pretend I know where the boundaries should be. It’s not a cure-all. The question is whether it’s a cure-anything. There is no political division larger than perhaps a small neighborhood that you could define within the current United States that would not have people on opposite sides of major, serious national issues. Many _households_ within the country have these types of divisions (on abortion, gun control, etc.) If you can’t set the boundaries, can you even name a single issue that would lend itself to secession? Where setting aside a portion of the U.S. larger than a small neighborhood would end debate on that issue? I’m not aware of any state in the union that doesn’t have ongoing debate about abortion (witness the filibuster in Texas – the Texas legislature is certainly not of one mind on the issue). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/31 "2016-03-23T20:37:03Z")
Looking at history, it seems the only successful revolutions are those that have a goal. A revolution which is only aimed at ending the existing order leads to a void. And terrible things enter that void. Successful revolutions are those which start out knowing what it is they are seeking to create. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/32 "2016-03-23T20:59:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Scary. > > No, but I do encourage secession in many cases. I will not display the incalculable hubris it would take to pretend I know where the boundaries should be. It’s not a cure-all. It doesn’t sound like it’s a cure anything. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/33 "2016-03-23T21:07:14Z")
> [@Totenfeier](#): > > In the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson wrote that “when any Government becomes destructive of these ends (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness), it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, &etc.” > > It seems that almost everybody is unhappy with the American government these days, but there doesn’t seem to be anything anybody can do about it. Voting is no good because of the myriad ways the system is rigged; armed rebellion doesn’t seem to stand a chance; and I believe that most people think that the attempt to call a new Constitutional Convention in today’s climate would be a) extremely difficult, and b) a Very Bad Idea anyway. > > So who here on the SDMB can solve this mess? The government as it is is vastly superior than whatever would replace it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/34 "2016-03-23T21:08:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Democratic conflicts. No it wouldn’t. Unless every human was his own country. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/35 "2016-03-23T21:25:40Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > The question is whether it’s a cure-anything. There is no political division larger than perhaps a small neighborhood that you could define within the current United States that would not have people on opposite sides of major, serious national issues. Many _households_ within the country have these types of divisions (on abortion, gun control, etc.) > > If you can’t set the boundaries, can you even name a single issue that would lend itself to secession? Where setting aside a portion of the U.S. larger than a small neighborhood would end debate on that issue? I’m not aware of any state in the union that doesn’t have ongoing debate about abortion (witness the filibuster in Texas – the Texas legislature is certainly not of one mind on the issue). You don’t seem to understand the point. Texas could be partitioned into several jurisdictions. Jurisdictions more friendly to a certain way of life would attract likeminded individuals. The point isn’t to end debate. The point is to end continent-wide struggles and conflicts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/36 "2016-03-23T21:31:39Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You don’t seem to understand the point. Texas could be partitioned into several jurisdictions. Jurisdictions more friendly to a certain way of life would attract likeminded individuals. The point isn’t to end debate. The point is to end continent-wide struggles and conflicts. How would that end such struggles? When Europe was divided into hundreds of tiny states, it was far, far less peaceful than it is now. What would stop strong men from using force to gain power in a hundred tiny fiefdoms? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/37 "2016-03-23T22:03:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You don’t seem to understand the point. Texas could be partitioned into several jurisdictions. Jurisdictions more friendly to a certain way of life would attract likeminded individuals. And why would this work? Are people free now to move from country to country whenever they want to? Why would it be true if there were a bunch of smaller countries? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The point isn’t to end debate. The point is to end continent-wide struggles and conflicts. Because places like the Balkans are known for their peaceful history. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/38 "2016-03-23T23:04:57Z")
> [@Totenfeier](#): > > So who here on the SDMB can solve this mess? I could give you a long list of definite improvements to the system – but could offer no way to make their implementation politically possible. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/39 "2016-03-23T23:11:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Peaceful secession That would take us in exactly the wrong direction. (The right one is the one that ends in a politically united world, very eventually.) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/40 "2016-03-23T23:21:21Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Martin Luther King didn’t sit around and complain about his vote not accomplishing anything. Neither did Cesar Chavez, labor unions, _ **suffragettes** _, etc. Well, the ladies did have an excuse for their votes not accomplishing anything. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948.md?page=3)