# A New Form of Government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948 "2016-03-23T13:58:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/61 "2016-03-25T18:30:21Z")
> [@GulfTiger](#): > > I don’t think that a large and violent revolution will happen. It’ll be more like a slow simmer, and it’s already started with informal secession. Where sizable groups, cities, or various states simply ignore federal laws. > > This what is going in with sanctuary cities and with marijuana laws. Not a whole lot that fedgov can do, unless it wants to conduct a military invasion. The legal system can only handle relatively small numbers, not several hundred thousand. If state and local police absolutely will not help, or are even hostile to the feds, they won’t be able to impose their laws. Edited. Jeez that post was a mess. Why didn’t someone say something sooner? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/62 "2016-03-25T19:07:38Z")
I’d say the civil rights movement is an example of the national government imposing its laws on a region where those laws did not have local support. So it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/63 "2016-03-25T19:19:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d say the civil rights movement is an example of the national government imposing its laws on a region where those laws did not have local support. So it can be done. Yes, under the threat of violence. Times have changed, the intestinal fortitude for that kind of thing no longer exists. Hell, our leaders don’t have the guts to call islamic extremism by its name these days. Should Obama call the troops into Colorado to enforce the drug laws? If the code Pink people don’t won’t their kids dying in Iraq, they sure as hell don’t want them dying in the Rockies. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/64 "2016-03-26T08:49:03Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > [They tried that before](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War). It was the bloodiest war our country ever fought. And the states that seceded lost. But what would happen now if a state voted to leave the union could America face the global condemnation from all the countries that she has preached the gospel of democracy. America would only have two choices either allow the state to leave or invade the state and hold its people within the union against their will. A vote to leave the union could be seen as a none violent bloodless revolution ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/65 "2016-03-26T09:04:35Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And beyond that, a lot of the Republican intransigence is a consequence of the 24-hour news cycle and the Internet, rather than some kind of fundamental shift in what people actually believe. As a result of those two things, it seems like both parties are pulling away from the center to some degree, with the Republicans having a better handle on how to use the media to energize their own base than the Democrats do. I agree with some of what you’re saying and disagree with some of it. The Republicans are seemingly better at rallying voters despite their presidential losses. This is due to the actions of a long list of right wing media personalities like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, Michael Savage, and several others. The Democrats don’t have anyone like them, or if they do they are only minimally effective. Because of that it’s only the Republicans that have moved further away from the center. The Democrats are still largely a just to the left of center party. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/66 "2016-03-26T09:32:52Z")
Today’s Democratic Party is actually to the right of center – issues polling with the population shows the people are father left. There is no viable left of center party. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/67 "2016-03-26T13:20:58Z")
> [@GulfTiger](#): > > Yes, under the threat of violence. Times have changed, the intestinal fortitude for that kind of thing no longer exists. Hell, our leaders don’t have the guts to call islamic extremism by its name these days. > > Should Obama call the troops into Colorado to enforce the drug laws? If the code Pink people don’t won’t their kids dying in Iraq, they sure as hell don’t want them dying in the Rockies. Oh, is this one of those “back in my day” arguments? If so, I’ll just get off your lawn. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/68 "2016-03-26T13:59:23Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > But what would happen now if a state voted to leave the union could America face the global condemnation from all the countries that she has preached the gospel of democracy. America would only have two choices either allow the state to leave or invade the state and hold its people within the union against their will. A vote to leave the union could be seen as a none violent bloodless revolution The Confederacy attacked first. There’s federal land, military bases, etc, in every state that would make an attack that likely in any state that wanted to assert its independence today. Not only that, the US guarantees its citizens rights. A majority can’t just vote away the rights of their fellow countrymen. The US government would be correct in stepping in to prevent that. We’re a republic, not a direct democracy, for exactly that reason. So just saying they voted to secede isn’t enough. You can’t vote to take basic rights away from people. Or you could, but that doesn’t make that vote legitimate. And thirdly, the precedent is set. This is a united country, not a bunch of autonomous regions. States are sovereign, except when it comes to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which they have chosen to abide in perpetuity. No take backs. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/69 "2016-03-26T14:36:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Oh, is this one of those “back in my day” arguments? If so, I’ll just get off your lawn. It’s a “what I see today” observation. Civil wars are tough and take virility, which most anyone can observe is in short supply these days. (and FYI, my townhouse does not have a lawn) ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/70 "2016-03-26T20:48:28Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Historically, even in light of such a short period as the last 20 years, it’s totally abberant. > > And even at that, Cruz’s budgetary shenanigans were a publicity stunt more than anything… We agree on Ted Cruz, and that’s the important thing, but shutting down the government is just one example from a long list of Republicans shitting on the democratic process, from so-called “candidates” using the primaries just to sell books and get speaking engagements, to blocking the president at every turn. Historically, maybe it’s just another blip on the screen as you say, but for someone who’s seeing it for the first time, it boggles my mind that it’s happening. Calling them out on it doesn’t get any traction in this age of fractured media and their ghettoized audiences, so they don’t have to answer for it, at least until election day when they might or might not have to. I don’t share your confidence–yet–that it will settle out eventually. November can’t come too soon. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/71 "2016-03-26T21:11:04Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > But what would happen now if a state voted to leave the union could America face the global condemnation from all the countries that she has preached the gospel of democracy. America would only have two choices either allow the state to leave or invade the state and hold its people within the union against their will. A vote to leave the union could be seen as a none violent bloodless revolution That’s too broad a hypothetical to answer. A lot would depend on how the attempt at secession were presented, what the terms of the secession would be, and what sort of political climate made secession a realistic political proposition. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/72 "2016-03-27T02:19:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You don’t seem to understand the point. Texas could be partitioned into several jurisdictions. Jurisdictions more friendly to a certain way of life would attract likeminded individuals. The point isn’t to end debate. The point is to end continent-wide struggles and conflicts. So what you are saying is that just as we do dry counties or blue-law counties or sanctuary cities or right-to-[del]fire[/del]work states, we could have municipalities and counties each choose to be a traditional-marriage county, a pro-life SSMA, a gun-free state, etc., and just have a gentlemen’s agreement to let things happen locally? Won’t fly. Fundamental rights have to be the same for everyone everywhere. And, the things that are the proper bailiwick of even a limited Union/State government are going to have to be decided for the whole of the Union/State, over the objection of dissenting states/jurisdictions who will still be required to foot the bill if outvoted. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2016, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/73 "2016-03-27T12:31:50Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > But what would happen now if a state voted to leave the union could America face the global condemnation from all the countries that she has preached the gospel of democracy. America would only have two choices either allow the state to leave or invade the state and hold its people within the union against their will. A vote to leave the union could be seen as a none violent bloodless revolution No state would vote to leave the USA. We elect presidents with an Electoral College that divides us into Red States & Blue States. But the reality is not so cut & dried. Since you’re new to US politics & history, check out [these maps](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2012/11/coloring-the-electoral-map-by-district-population-density-and-partisan-split/). Here in Texas, we’ve had a few loudmouthed voices for secession. All on the Far Right. But our cities tend Democratic–that’s where the good jobs & the smart people are located. And we depend on the Federal government–with many military bases & even the HQ of NASA. We need some change but it will occur gradually. The loudest voices are not those advocating change–but those against it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/74 "2016-03-27T15:01:37Z")
> [@Totenfeier](#): > > In the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson wrote that “when any Government becomes destructive of these ends (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness), it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, &etc.” > > It seems that almost everybody is unhappy with the American government these days, People are always unhappy with the American government. But “unhappy” is far from “destructive to the ends of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” We haven’t reached that point yet. > [@](#): > > but there doesn’t seem to be anything anybody can do about it. Voting is no good because of the myriad ways the system is rigged; How exactly? Other than gerrymandering, which is certainly a legitimate problem, the system is fine. > [@](#): > > armed rebellion doesn’t seem to stand a chance; and I believe that most people think that the attempt to call a new Constitutional Convention in today’s climate would be a) extremely difficult, and b) a Very Bad Idea anyway. > > So who here on the SDMB can solve this mess? Continue to not participate in the system by not voting, and sit around and whine about the system, as always. That’s working out for half the eligible voters now. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/75 "2016-03-29T20:24:57Z")
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/76 "2016-03-30T00:29:23Z")
> [@OffByOne](#): > > I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure. Nukocracy does have its points, I suppose . . . only, who is to nuke the nukers? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948/77 "2016-03-30T03:20:53Z")
The US is a ticking time bomb. One false move and everything goes kablooie. Well, not really. OECD member countries (the high income club) have it pretty well. That said, our democracy is poorly designed, through no fault of the founding fathers who were basically winging it. But it turns out that voters are more change averse than they imagined, so the separation of powers philosophy was over-emphasized. In fact, Latin American nations following the US model have tended to end in coups. Countries based upon a parliamentary model with prime ministers have tended to be more stable. What has held the US together (mostly) is democratic norms. Which are being enthusiastically dismantled by Republican obstructionists. So modifications to our democratic framework would probably be a good thing. But that would require a consensus among the donor class that keeping the boat afloat is the first priority. And such a consensus does not exist yet. Article referencing Juan Linz, who wrote about the above: [Founding Falter - The American Prospect](http://prospect.org/article/founding-falter) Another one: [Juan Linz dies: Yale political scientist explains why government-by-crisis will just get worse.](http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/10/juan_linz_dies_yale_political_scientist_explains_why_government_by_crisis.html) James Fallows (2011) on rules and norms: [On Rules and Norms: 4 Reasons to Regret This Moment - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/on-rules-and-norms-4-reasons-to-regret-this-moment/243082/) It’s possible that the US system has had longstanding flaws, and that obstructionism is similar to a technological development for an ambitious party. If so, the upcoming decades could be rocky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-form-of-government/749948.md?page=3)