# "A new high school will have ... places to hide from a mass shooter" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 23, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114 "2019-08-23T16:13:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/41 "2019-08-24T06:41:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I came from a generation where 1 person stayed home and raised the children. It was considered a real job and taken seriously. I went to a parochial school where teachers focused on social skills. The same is true of “Texas Tower Sniper” Charles Whitman, who in 1966 after murdering his mother and wife perpetrated what remained the deadliest school shooting on record up till the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre. The mother of Columbine school shooter Eric Harris was also a full-time homemaker. ISTM that relying on this sort of “old-fashioned family values” influence to prevent mass shootings is a fairytale. Yes, we need to do a better job of confronting social problems like toxic aggression and mental illness. But plenty of countries that aren’t doing a better job than we are in those areas nonetheless have nowhere near our number of mass murders. “Family values” and social problems are obviously not the only or biggest pieces of the puzzle here. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/42 "2019-08-24T07:08:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ISTM that relying on this sort of “old-fashioned family values” influence to prevent mass shootings is a fairytale. And all it takes is one. If, out of a million parents, 999,999 raised good kids thru old fashioned values but one produced a mass murderer nonetheless, then that’s…a Columbine right there. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/43 "2019-08-24T08:55:56Z")
If video games, modern degeneracy, etc. were causing kids to act violently, wouldn’t it be the case that kids were getting more violent and schools were getting less safe? [In reality](https://curry.virginia.edu/faculty-research/centers-labs-projects/research-labs/youth-violence-project/violence-schools-and-5), kids are less violent and schools are safer. (There’s also a section about how flashy new school security measures are probably pointless, and possibly even harmful.) ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/44 "2019-08-24T16:45:37Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > It is what it is **glee**. The occasional massacre of school children is something they’ve accepted. Yep, the US is too stupid to figure this out so now we are designing schools to keep the kill numbers down. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/45 "2019-08-24T17:56:29Z")
I expect some arms manufacturers to start producing and selling versions of the WW 2 German Krummlauf with periscope and bent barrel for shooting around curves and corners. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/46 "2019-08-24T19:04:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I came from a generation where 1 person stayed home and raised the children. It was considered a real job and taken seriously. I went to a parochial school where teachers focused on social skills. It was a coordinated effort between teacher and parents. > > We as a society have not made adjustments to the changes in family structure. the social training has taken a back seat to an amazing amount of media violence from television, movies, games, and the internet. > > I can still remember as a kid watching a movie on TV where someone was brutally killed and thinking this type of entertainment was cumulatively harmful. > > We are the environment we grow up in. If human life isn’t valued then no amount of preemptive cocooning will correct that. We exist on the collective benevolence of others. > > The shooter in Dayton had posted a list of people to kill and rape while he was in school. It wasn’t properly addressed. After graduating he openly talked about his fascination for mass killings with friends and he played in a band that was flat-out morally bankrupt. the problem to solve is mental health. So basically - 1. You want to reduce gun violence without changing anything about gun laws. 2. You want to improve mental health coverage without doing anything to our health care system. 3. You want to redesign society and it’s values but keep government out of people’s private lives. This is how we end up with schools with curvy hallways, but you don’t want that either. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/47 "2019-08-24T19:22:17Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > Yep, the US is too stupid to figure this out so now we are designing schools to keep the kill numbers down. ☹ It’s less to keep kill numbers down, and more to give aspiring school shooters an interesting challenge to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/48 "2019-08-24T21:05:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So basically - > > 1. You want to reduce gun violence without changing anything about gun laws. Guns aren’t violent. They are inanimate objects. Removing them does not remove the intent to harm people. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/49 "2019-08-24T21:51:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The same is true of “Texas Tower Sniper” Charles Whitman, who in 1966 after murdering his mother and wife perpetrated what remained the deadliest school shooting on record up till the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre. The mother of Columbine school shooter Eric Harris was also a full-time homemaker. ISTM that relying on this sort of “old-fashioned family values” influence to prevent mass shootings is a fairytale. why is it a fairy tale? Here are the deaths by decade: 1960 38 1970 38 1980 55 1990 98 2000 108 2010 186 There is a significant upward trend and we still have 4 months to go in this in this decade. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/50 "2019-08-25T07:57:44Z")
I believe the technical term for this idea is “stupid”. You have an order of magnitude higher chance of being killed by the school bus that takes you to or from school than being killed by a school shooter. So investing money in making school architecture more “tactical” is better spent on actually teaching its occupants things like probability and statistics. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/51 "2019-08-25T08:08:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I came from a generation where 1 person stayed home and raised the children. It was considered a real job and taken seriously. I went to a parochial school where teachers focused on social skills. It was a coordinated effort between teacher and parents. > > We as a society have not made adjustments to the changes in family structure. the social training has taken a back seat to an amazing amount of media violence from television, movies, games, and the internet. > > I can still remember as a kid watching a movie on TV where someone was brutally killed and thinking this type of entertainment was cumulatively harmful. > > We are the environment we grow up in. If human life isn’t valued then no amount of preemptive cocooning will correct that. We exist on the collective benevolence of others. . The amazing amount of media violence from television, movies, games, and the internet has given you the perception that society is becoming more violent, when the reality is that isn’t true: > **[What the data says (and doesn’t say) about crime in the United States](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/)** > > The two primary sources of government crime statistics both paint an incomplete picture, though efforts at improvement are underway. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/52 "2019-08-25T08:11:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > why is it a fairy tale? Here are the deaths by decade: > 1960 38 > 1970 38 > 1980 55 > 1990 98 > 2000 108 > 2010 186 > > There is a significant upward trend and we still have 4 months to go in this in this decade. Where’d you get this data? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/53 "2019-08-25T08:13:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Guns aren’t violent. They are inanimate objects. Removing them does not remove the intent to harm people. Are you serious? 😕 After a gunman killed schoolchildren and a teacher in Scotland in 1996, the UK banned handguns; no school shootings have taken place there since. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/54 "2019-08-25T11:13:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Guns aren’t violent. They are inanimate objects. Removing them does not remove the intent to harm people. You just tried to argue with me, and in so doing, proved the exact point I was making. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/55 "2019-08-25T12:23:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Guns aren’t violent. They are inanimate objects. Removing them does not remove the intent to harm people. It does restrict the \*ability \*to do so, though. No, guns themselves aren’t the problem, and neither are assholes and neither are inadequate protection of potential victims. The problem is the \*combination \*of guns and assholes and inadequate protection. Unless you can offer a plausible and effective approach to solving the asshole problem (and you can’t; there isn’t one), there are only two parts of the problem available to address, aren’t there? Architecture, AKA surrender, is one, as this story exemplifies. What’s the other? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/56 "2019-08-25T12:30:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Guns aren’t violent. They are inanimate objects. Removing them does not remove the intent to harm people. It doesn’t reduce the intent, but it can reduce the ability. You’re never going to eliminate intent without mind control, which would be somewhat more of a disturbing rights violation than gun control, to my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/57 "2019-08-25T12:32:31Z")
It’s more complex. It’s not a simple situation. What about psychotropic drugs? Do not take my guns away. I need to protect me and my family. This school design will help to reduce injury and death from any mass shooter. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/58 "2019-08-25T12:49:36Z")
Given the extreme rarity of shootings in schools, these features must be either extremely cheap or extremely effective to be worth the cost. So, has there been an independent showing that these new design features work at all, let alone to a degree that would justify the extra expense? Or is some grifter just padding their bills because people in the throes of a moral panic\* are easy marks? \*Gun violence is a real problem, but schools are pretty much the last places in need of solutions to it. Kids at school are just about the safest people in the country from violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/59 "2019-08-25T15:56:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It does restrict the \*ability \*to do so, though. > > No, guns themselves aren’t the problem, and neither are assholes and neither are inadequate protection of potential victims. The problem is the \*combination \*of guns and assholes and inadequate protection. Unless you can offer a plausible and effective approach to solving the asshole problem (and you can’t; there isn’t one), there are only two parts of the problem available to address, aren’t there? Architecture, AKA surrender, is one, as this story exemplifies. What’s the other? I’m not against the design idea. Making doors harder to breach is a cost effective idea. I just think the curving hallway misses the mark. Even if it doesn’t add any cost. It doesn’t begin to isolate anybody close to a shooter. There’s no mention in the article about testing it. We do active shooter drills all the time. Where does this fit in? We have an entire military complex that plays war games to simulate stuff like this. Take the idea and have at it with a mockup with all the ideas you can think of and lets see where the money should be spent. Looking at the issue there is an increase in the number of shooters. We can’t make guns go away nor are guns the only avenue of mass murder. We could spend a million dollars on safety for each student in school to protect them from guns and someone will just run them over outside the building or make an IED and blow them up or an infinite number of ways to kill. It’s the intent of the person in a mass killing that does the damage. Focusing on one possible tool or method doesn’t improve the likely outcome. Something has changed to increase the mental instability of children in my lifetime. If you disagree with my assessment of why that happened it doesn’t change the fact that it happened. I think we’re a product of our environment and that environment has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114/60 "2019-08-25T16:22:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I just think the curving hallway misses the mark. Even if it doesn’t add any cost. It doesn’t begin to isolate anybody close to a shooter. There’s no mention in the article about testing it. Curved hallways definitely reduce the sightlines and number of possible people a shooter can fire on. > [@Magiver](#): > > Something has changed to increase the mental instability of children in my lifetime. [Mental Health Watchdog Releases New Report on Link Between Psychotropic Drugs & School/Mass Shootings](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mental-health-watchdog-releases-new-report-on-link-between-psychotropic-drugs--schoolmass-shootings-300618265.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-high-school-will-have-places-to-hide-from-a-mass-shooter/839114.md?page=4)