warmgun thing?
refresh my memory, please.
oh please, you’ve misrepresented me.
that discussion was, as I said, not a great debate, and I admitted I should have put it in the MPSIMS forum.
other than the afrorementioned I was basically harassed becuase rather than give examples of why I should be impressed by Jesus–those I’d already heard–I was given examples of his followers, mostly
so anyway, this has nothing to do with this discussion
proceed
I’d like to point out that my points, being particularly genius in their brevity, are never simply ignored b/c they lack constitution but rather provoke response as they deserve such consideration
and this “new opinion form a christian” is neither new nor very Christian… but then again, no one can have much of a concept of Christianity unless you’re a Christian
I think someone said it best in the GB when they stated “1.8 billion Christians, 1.8 billion different ideas of Christianity” or something to that effect
if you think about that statement, one begins to wonder if any of these supposes Christians are actually Christians
I cannot spell anymore
Regarding Lolo:
See, that’s why you can’t ignore him. He takes that as a signal of victory and just uses it to launch another round of meaningless and vapid stupidity. I’ve e-mailed a mod. I’m sick of it. At least Ambushed, despite his condescension and arrogance, debates. I’m outta here until somebody empties the garbage.
You don’t need faith to not believe in fairy tales. Hye, how do you know Snow White and the Seven prositutes isn’t a true story? Maybe I’ve experience those prostitutes and you can’t tell me they aren’t real!
<<fart noise>>
(Is there no room for humor in the GB? Maybe I’m not funny.)
**
“Your honor, my name’s Lolo, I have this book, it’s about a very special elephant. His name is Dumbo. I’d like children to be taught, with equally devoted time, that Dumbo is God. Also, there will be signs along the highway expressing condemnation for those not willing accept Dumbo as God. I think there is as much faith required to NOT believe in Dumbo as is the vice versa.”
Regarding Lib,
See, that’s why you can’t ignore him. He takes his “you don’t get it, I’m right, you’re wrong, you’re mean” as a signal of “I’m telling the mod” and just uses it to launch another round of meaningless and vapid stupidity. I’m sick of it.
who’s not debating?
I’m here. I’m debating. You’re confusing my lack of placation with non-debate.
Jesus loves you but he hates me.
Folks, we have a winner! And your doorprize is …
… the door.
Don’t let it hit ya where the Good Lord split ya.
on second thought, I’m hilarious. My mom told me so.
admit you liked the Dumbo dialogue.
admit it.
Alright, I have to admit, I don’t know all the policies about posting web links here, so if I’m breaking some rule and the mod sees it, just delete this message, let me know, and I’ll try and figure something else out.
It’s about the weeping icon. I’ve found a web page that talks a bit about it, about the monestary it’s in, has an interview with one of the priests about the existance of miracles, and a map to the monestary, all of which are pretty relevant to this discussion (the fact it leads to a somewhat religious site is what confuses me about possibly breaking rules). The site is:
http://www.inetport.com/~one/bsblanco.html
Again, this is for those who want to learn a bit more about the icon I was talking about earlier, which so far, has yet to be disproven as a “miracle” by any Church, and seeing as how there was a whole talk about proof, here’s some proof. Read it, see what you think, and then make some informed decisions.
the words bull and sh*t come to mind.
One icon of one religion in one church in one state in one country? Why would an omniscent, omnipotent God have a religion?
seems like some bull and some sh*t.
but that’s just me, just lolo
Thanks for the link to the monastery miracle.
Here are 3 extracts from it:
“Great miracles have come as a result of anointing with the tears of the icon. Cures of cancer, leukemia, blindness, mental illness, and the most precious gift of all - peace of mind - have been given to many souls.”
Unfortunately no names are given. Don’t these people want to share their gift of God with us?
“The Icon of Our Lady of New Sarov was discovered weeping on 7 May, 1985; it wept continuously until October. The monks’ first step was to discern if the manifestation was authentic and to notify immediately their ecclesiastical superiors of the event. All attested to the miracle’s authenticity.”
Um, who are these ‘all’ who attested? Presumably no scientist has investigated.
“The Monks keep bees and sell honey, candles and incense, mount icons, and publish religious books and pamphlets which are for sale in the Monastery’s bookstore and gift shop.”
I expect their sales have risen dramatically since the ‘miracle’ occurred.
Feel free to call me names (‘sceptic’ comes to mind).
But here we have a claim of a miracle from God, with no supporting evidence or independent assessment, which benefits the monks financially.
As my previous link showed, every previous ‘miracle’ that has been investigated has been shown to be a fake.
When will this one be checked?
The revival has wound down, and Brother Faith puts up his snakes in
their cages for the night. Bart walks backstage to ask him a question.
Bart: Excuse me, Brother Faith? I’ve gotta know --how did you
really get the bucket off my Dad’s head?
Faith: Well, I didn’t, son. You did. God gave you the power.
Bart: Really? Huh. I would think that He would want to limit my power.
Faith: [laughs] Oh, yes, Lord. When I was your age, I was a
hellraiser, too. [holds up Bart’s slingshot] My slingshot
was my cross. But I saw the light, and changed my wicked ways.
Bart: **I think I’ll go for the life of sin, followed by a presto-
change-o deathbed repentance.
Faith: Wow, that’s a good angle. **
The revival has wound down, and Brother Faith puts up his snakes in
their cages for the night. Bart walks backstage to ask him a question.
Bart: Excuse me, Brother Faith? I’ve gotta know --how did you
really get the bucket off my Dad’s head?
Faith: Well, I didn’t, son. You did. God gave you the power.
Bart: Really? Huh. I would think that He would want to limit my power.
Faith: [laughs] Oh, yes, Lord. When I was your age, I was a
hellraiser, too. [holds up Bart’s slingshot] My slingshot
was my cross. But I saw the light, and changed my wicked ways.
Bart: **I think I’ll go for the life of sin, followed by a presto-
change-o deathbed repentance.
Faith: Wow, that’s a good angle. **
**
I know no names were given about the miracles, but it was one short article, probably based off of a two minute interview. The address to the place is at the bottom, and you know one of the priest’s names at least, write them a letter and see if they’ll send you more information if you’re that interested. They may be able to tell you more about how much investigation went into the “authentication” of the icon’s “wonder.”
As for who attested to it, it was most likely mainly monks, but don’t think that means they just looked at the thing and said “Yep, it’s real.” The Church investigates such claims with a scientific approach as well. Just because the Catholic Church teaches faith, don’t think they’re ignorant of science. They know it’s uses, they embrace it, and when needed, they use it. The church doesn’t accept all forms of such miracles on faith and usually tries its hardest to disprove such things because false miracles are worse than no miracles at all. Again, if you’re curious as to the techniques in which the icon was tested, feel free to research it yourself on the internet, books, or write them yourslef.
And all monestaries sell shit. Okay, maybe not all, but I’m sure they were framing pictures and selling honey before the icon came along. It may be more of a tourist attraction now thanks to the icon, but I’m sure if it wasn’t there, business would be carrying on as usual.
How’s “Free thinker” sound? Like I said, I’m not sure if I believe in the icon’s validity, it’s just something I used as an example because I knew it existed through friends, and it’s close to home. I don’t think of it much, because I don’t need to. I’ve never seen it, and I don’t really care if I ever do, so don’t go thinking I’m telling you you have to believe because this thing exists. In my opinion, it’s good to have faith, even if there’s no solid evidence to prove the existance of God or whatever one believes in, but don’t just believe because you’ve been told there’s some big guy in the clouds looking down on you. Faith needs to be tested, examined, annalysed, and strengthened. If you’re a skeptic, keep searching. If you never find any sufficient “evidence,” that’s fine. If you do, don’t stop searching. The harder you look, the stronger you’ll believe, and the closer you’ll get (or the less you’ll believe, and the more content you’ll be with life as it is).
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo *
As for who attested to it, it was most likely mainly monks, but don’t think that means they just looked at the thing and said “Yep, it’s real.” The Church investigates such claims with a scientific approach as well. Just because the Catholic Church teaches faith, don’t think they’re ignorant of science. They know it’s uses, they embrace it, and when needed, they use it.
[QUOTE]
For the record, the monastery in your linked article is Russian Orthodox, not Catholic. I do not know, and therefore cannot say, if the Russian Orthodox Church investigates alleged miracles in a manner similar to the Catholic Church.
**
Point of order: The Church does not try to “disprove” anything. It investigates reports of miracles, visions, whatever, and attempts to determine if they have a mundane origin, a supernatural origin, or are “unexplained.”
I did a Google search, and there doesn’t appear to have been any sort of formal investigation conducted by any arm of any Church. In any case, my gut instinct tells me not to wonder too much–these things always turn out to be what are usually referred to as “pious frauds.”
Elvis:
Still, the scriptures state that the Jews did not believe, despite the miracles God performed for them. Psalm 78 is a good example.
Except for the whole Jesus thing. According to the Gospels, Jesus did scads of amazing things. Many did believe, but some did not. Some of his closest followers doubted. If the Gospels are to be believed, Jesus performed huge miracles in the presence of many thousands of people, yet aside from the Bible no one deemed him important enough to give him more than a blurb.
Assuming the phenomena at Fatima actually occur, and assuming that the phenomena are purely supernatural in nature, how does one then jump to the conclusion that this is a miracle from the Christian God?
In Upper Michigan, I know of a place where mysterious lights have appeared every night for several decades. Faintly, you can see a red and green light, the sort cast by a trainman’s lantern. Then a bright white light like the kind on a locomotive appears on the right, nears the smaller light, and they both disappear only to appear again and again. I’ve witnessed it myself on hundreds of occasions. I’ve tried to find the source of the lights, as have many others, but no one has succeeded. Legend is, a railroad worker was murdered along the tracks (which are no longer in service) and the lights are a ghostly reenactment.
Now, the lights do exist, having been confirmed by thousands of witnesses over the years. No one knows what they are, as hundreds have searched the woods for decades and found no explanation. Should we then come to the conclusion that the lights are, indeed, ghostly phenomena and the legend is true? What do you think?
JepSnert:
You seem to have some confusion here with the definitions of soft and hard atheism.
So, you really do believe that a flying pink elephant exists? And mustn’t you also believe in the magical toad in my sock drawer? If you don’t, wouldn’t that require faith?
I have no “faith” that God doesn’t exist. I readily admit that I don’t know (and can’t know- I’m an agnostic, too). I can’t know for certain if I exist, but I assume it to be true for two reasons: first, because if I constantly wondered about my own existence, I’d never get anything done, and second, because I have ample evidence to suggest that I do exist. I do not have enough evidence to assume God (or your pink elephant) exists, so I don’t believe he does.
Imposter’s post removed at poster’s request. --Gaudere
[Edited by Gaudere on 10-28-2001 at 12:27 PM]
[Moderator’s Note: The top postion of this post is a reponse by Lib to some comments made by someone who used WitchyMari’s username without his/her permission. At WitchyMari’s request, I have deleted the imposter posts, but I have left the responses to it since removing all trace of them looked like it would cause more confusion than leaving them. --Gaudere]
WitchyMari,
Well, thank Material that you’ve descended from the Internet netherworld to be among us and to tell us what a debate is, along with what a troll is, and just incidentally, to give us the Unified Field Theory of Philosophy. What’s most remarkable is that you did it all with your left hand, speaking to us in spiritual terms for the benefit of the OP. I tremble wondering what powers you will unleash when you switch to your right hand. And to think you put boredom aside jess fo lil ol us! How will we repay you?
I did find a morsel that, upon great struggle, I was able to comprehend. Would you mind that I comment on it?
It’s too bad you came along so late. You could have saved philosophers over the centuries a hell of a lot of time and bother. Let’s just overlook your torrent of logical fallacies — bifurcations, red herrings, straw men, consequent affirmations, and the like — and deal with your own assertion that you were kind enough finally to make, thus ending your post.
The fact is that worms are munching on people’s remains as we speak. My mother is on a fluffy cloud in heaven. And Jesus has already been to hell. Perhaps there is more to heaven and earth than what you’ve reduced it all to. Not likely, of course. But just maybe.
Oh, and here:
Lolo,
Please defend that assertion with some form of reasoning. I’m flexible. I can accept deduction or induction, or even the scientific method.
Please restate your rhetorical questions in the form of assertions.
Please explain why the above assertion is not gratuitous. Please offer something that someone else can argue against. Your philosophical nose-picking does not constitute a set of debatable assertions. I and many others believe you are a troll. Nevertheless, those who matter believe differently. Therefore, I will confront you head-on wherever I see you post to expose your every worthless utterance for what it is.
[Edited by Gaudere on 10-28-2001 at 12:39 PM]
Oh boy, now I’m gonna get it.
Just want to point out a few of the basic premises on which Christianity is based.
-
There is a God.
-
God’s primary characteristic is not “love.” God’s primary characteristic is holiness.
-
God has all the power. You don’t, even if you think you do.
-
Because God has all the power, He has the absolute right to do whatever seems good to him.
-
This may include allowing evil to happen to people.
(With the exception of a handful of people, it also includes death for every person. However, nowhere in the Bible or the Christian belief system is death ever called an outright evil.) -
The Bible says that God does not do evil (as in He doesn’t actually sully His hands with it), but He brings it (1 Kings 21, I think) and He creates it when He chooses (Isa 45). Because He is the first cause behind everything, He is ultimately responsible for allowing it. Even if He did evil, it wouldn’t be ‘evil’ in the sense we are capable of because all evil is born of sin and God has no sin.
-
None of that makes Him evil.
My 2 cents:
Phil is right - there is no moral standard that we as people can hold God to. And, we have no right to complain if He doesn’t live up to our expectations.
I don’t have a problem with God doing evil, bringing evil, allowing evil or whatever. I am not sure how this is supposed to prove that God can’t exist, and if He does, He’s schizophrenic. Unless He chooses to reveal Himself to you, you won’t see Him. I can’t offer you any proof. Only He can.
Well anyway. My first post here. Don’t mean to offend. 
MG