# A New Perspective on Homophobia (for me, anyway) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2003, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830 "2003-07-16T07:19:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LadySybil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c89c15/32.png) [@LadySybil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LadySybil)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/61 "2003-07-18T02:58:51Z")
Sigh. So much ignorance, so little time. Anyone have a link to ATGG handy? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Wrong\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b782af/32.png) [@The\_Wrong\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Wrong_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/62 "2003-07-18T03:00:35Z")
I’m still waiting on an explanation for your random “cite?” interjection, **LadySybil** …care to let us all know what you meant? And what the heck is ATGG? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/63 "2003-07-18T03:03:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Wrong Girl \* > \*\*I’m still waiting on an explanation for your random “cite?” interjection, **LadySybil** …care to let us all know what you meant? > > And what the heck is ATGG? \*\* ATGG=Ask The Gay Guy ---
**Author:** ![The\_Wrong\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b782af/32.png) [@The\_Wrong\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Wrong_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/64 "2003-07-18T03:05:15Z")
Oookay. Well, that settles it. I’m officially confuzzled. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/65 "2003-07-18T03:05:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > \*\*I other thing I must mention before I am beaten up again. That gay anal sex seems very brutal. And I wonder who would stand or lie there and take it if they don’t have to. Staight men look at anal sex on another man as a kind of dommination. > In groups of chimpanzees the ruling male which is the only one that has sex with the females. He acts like he is having sex with all the other males in the group to show he is in control over the group and they can’t have his females. I telling you it’s more than just learned behavior. It’s something hard wired. \*\* _sigh_ Anal sex is not brutal. It is not dominination. It is not hard wired. You are simply uneducated and using fear as a defense mechanism against learning. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/66 "2003-07-18T03:07:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LadySybil \* > \*\*Sigh. So much ignorance, so little time. Anyone have a link to ATGG handy? \*\* So, the blind attempting to lead the blind is your mode now? ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/67 "2003-07-18T03:17:41Z")
**LadySybil** , how about you cut out the cryptic shit and let us know what the fuck you’re talking about, hmm? And **BeatenMan** …_sigh_ Glutton for punishment, aren’t you? Well, I’ll leave the inevitable further beating to others. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/68 "2003-07-18T03:43:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LadySybil \* > Sigh. So much ignorance, so little time. Anyone have a link to ATGG handy? [1, [url=“http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=24008”]2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=23047), [3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=39308), [4](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=68530). ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/69 "2003-07-18T04:11:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > \*\*ONE other thing I must mention before I am beaten up again. That gay anal sex seems very brutal. And I wonder who would stand or lie there and take it if they don’t have to. Staight men look at anal sex on another man as a kind of dommination. > > \*\* This is an interesting view of being on the receiving end of penetrative sex. I wonder, how do you think women lie there and take it if we don’t have to? Or do you see it as being proper when women are being dominated in this fashion, and “brutal” when it’s men, who ought to be the dominators? (It does tend to back up your OP theory, Ferrous.) ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/70 "2003-07-18T04:45:18Z")
**BeatenMan** , have you seen anal sex other than portrayed in American media? It doesn’t all go hard and fast and reckless[sub]though I wouldn’t know:([/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Salieri2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Salieri2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salieri2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/71 "2003-07-18T05:11:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bren\_Cameron \* > \*\*This is an interesting view of being on the receiving end of penetrative sex. I wonder, how do you think women lie there and take it if we don’t have to? Or do you see it as being proper when women are being dominated in this fashion, and “brutal” when it’s men, who ought to be the dominators? > > (It does tend to back up your OP theory, Ferrous.) \*\* Bravo, **Bren\_Cameron**! You said it before I could, and more concisely. For a long time I’ve considered this attitude towards penetration as a likely suspect in male homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/72 "2003-07-18T06:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > **Natural selection prefered men who were attacted to women.** Which is why homosexuality probably isn’t genetic or hereditary. As for the “homophobes are repressed gays” cites, the [plethysmograph](http://www.skepdic.com/penilep.html) isn’t exactly the pinnacle of science. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/73 "2003-07-18T06:27:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bren\_Cameron \* > \*\*This is an interesting view of being on the receiving end of penetrative sex. I wonder, how do you think women lie there and take it if we don’t have to? Or do you see it as being proper when women are being dominated in this fashion, and “brutal” when it’s men, who ought to be the dominators? > > (It does tend to back up your OP theory, Ferrous.) \*\* Well, if one is going on the model put forth by Catherine McKinnon, all penetration is rape. From my field work among the domsticated homosexual, I’ve found that anal sex is very, _very_ nice. I think that once I get my McArthur Genius Grant, I will be able to spend all my time doing field work. To dream, the impossible dream. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/74 "2003-07-18T06:31:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **BeatenMan** _ > > Gay men that don’t act femmine I have no problem with… I must say being around gay men does make me feel uncomfortable just like being around a group of convicts or a group of low life criminals. I don’t like being around loud talking black people. I don’t being around snooty rich white people. I don’t like being aroud noisy teenagers. There is a lot of people I don’t like being around. So, in essence, it’s your problem, and you project it onto the people around you. I’m underwhelmed. And I’ll include my sig line so folks can read the ATGG threads if they’re so inclined. (I hope **CuriousCanuck** doesn’t mind, as it’s entirely appropriate in this case.) Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/75 "2003-07-18T06:36:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > \*\*I was tring to explain why I am not attracted to gay men. This does not mean I would ever hurt a gay person just because they are differant. > I have no ill will or bad feeling toward gay men. I just get these vibes. Gay men that don’t act femmine I have no problem with. What I meant as far as it being a survivial tool. Natural selection prefered men who were attacted to women. I must say being around gay men does make me feel uncomfortable just like being around a group of convicts or a group of low life criminals. I don’t like being around loud talking black people. I don’t being around snooty rich white people. I don’t like being aroud noisy teenagers. There is a lot of people I don’t like being around. I myself am kind of a social missfit and alot of people don’t like to be around me. This is how life is. Not everybody will accept you. THATS JUST HOW IT IS. \*\* So… as long as you have no idea that they’re gay or if they act butch enough to pass your muster they’re fine? People like you tempt me to shave off my beard, wear makeup, and run around in evening gowns. So many gender issues, so much denial, so little desire to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/76 "2003-07-18T13:02:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*Which is why homosexuality probably isn’t genetic or hereditary. > \*\* This doesn’t follow. Natural selection might prefer guys who are attracted to women, but it doesn’t select against guys who aren’t exclusively attracted to women, just so long as they reproduce. Which means that if there are genetic components for “being attracted to your own gender” they could still have been passed along. The assumption that anything nature selects against will inevitably be wiped out just doesn’t always hold true. You’d think nature would select against people with bad eyesight, or really stupid people, both of whom would have been sabre tooth tiger snacks fairly quickly, and yet look around you. ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/77 "2003-07-18T13:12:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > **Well, if one is going on the model put forth by Catherine McKinnon, all penetration is rape.** And since I agree with Ferrous’ theory–came to it myself a number of years ago–I find Catherine McKinnon’s model bizzarely misogynistic. I’m not saying that every woman has to enjoy penetrative sex, just that equating it with rape, domination, and humiliation is a particularly misogynistic view, from what I can see. It isn’t so much a departure from male-dominated misogynistic views about sex as it is the logical, extreme conclusion of them. \*\* > [@](#): > > From my field work among the domsticated homosexual, I’ve found that anal sex is very, _very_ nice.\*\* I’ve met many who agree with you. I myself can take it or leave it. I wish you luck with your ambition! Remember, the larger the sample size, the more accurate the resulting statistics. 😃 \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/78 "2003-07-18T13:13:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bren\_Cameron \* > **This doesn’t follow. Natural selection might prefer guys who are attracted to women, but it doesn’t select against guys who aren’t exclusively attracted to women, just so long as they reproduce. Which means that if there are genetic components for “being attracted to your own gender” they could still have been passed along.** I’ll concede that it is possible. > [@](#): > > \*\*The assumption that anything nature selects against will inevitably be wiped out just doesn’t always hold true. You’d think nature would select against people with bad eyesight, or really stupid people, both of whom would have been sabre tooth tiger snacks fairly quickly, and yet look around you. \*\* Some think bad eyesight in youths (bad eyesight in older people doesn’t affect natural selection, since they’d die after reproducing) can be caused by modern society in some way. [Cecil has written on the subject](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_105.html). As for stupidity, I’m inclined to think modern society has a hand in it as well. But let’s skip the details. You’re right in that every undesirable trait (from the viewpoint of natural selection) isn’t wiped out. Therefore it is possible that a “gay gene” exists. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/79 "2003-07-18T17:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > \*\*Well, if one is going on the model put forth by Catherine McKinnon, all penetration is rape. > \*\* Are you sure this is Catharine MacKinnon’s view? I don’t think much of MacKinnon, but to her credit I don’t believe she’s ever actually claimed any such thing. If you have a good cite I’ll take that back, of course. MacKinnon’s buddy Andrea Dworkin has said that all penetration is inherently _violent_, but even she doesn’t claim that it’s all _rape_. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/80 "2003-07-18T17:11:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bren\_Cameron \* > \*\*And since I agree with Ferrous’ theory–came to it myself a number of years ago–I find Catherine McKinnon’s model bizzarely misogynistic. I’m not saying that every woman has to enjoy penetrative sex, just that equating it with rape, domination, and humiliation is a particularly misogynistic view, from what I can see. It isn’t so much a departure from male-dominated misogynistic views about sex as it is the logical, extreme conclusion of them. \*\* Well, in fairness, it’s not really _my_ theory. Just something I saw on TV and found intriguing. I do think there’s something to it though. As for the “all penetration is rape” theory, I’m pretty sure **Mockingbird** doesn’t agree with it either. I just took it as a humorous observation. Correct me if I’m wrong, **Mockingbird**. Now, as to the survival of bad eyesight and so on, I don’t recall where I heard this, but consider: Perhaps primitive human males with bad eyesight, or similar defects that made them poor hunters, didn’t go out hunting with the rest of the men. They stayed back in the cave (or whatever) with the women. Thus they had plenty of opportunity to get a little surreptitious nookie\* with the mates of the big boys. 😉 That doesn’t speak to the “gay gene” possibility, of course. [sub]\*Band name![/sub] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830.md?page=5)