# A New Perspective on Homophobia (for me, anyway) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2003, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830 "2003-07-16T07:19:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/121 "2003-07-20T19:35:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Because I don’t like to take it up my ass I guess im biggoted and stupid. No. It’s your homophobia that makes you bigoted. Oh, and BTW, not all homosexuals engage in anal sex. So make up your mind. Is it people who engage in anal sex that freak you out, or is it homosexuals that freak you out? You have offered up a theory that homophobia is hard-wired in the brain, but provided no evidence for it. And on top of it, you throw in this: > [@](#): > > Just like personal space and highway driving. It is well documented that personal space is a **cultural** issue. It is a behavior that is learned. Highway driving is a behavior that is learned as well. You use to examples of learned behavior to support a theory of hard-wired behavior? This is what makes you stupid. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/122 "2003-07-20T19:51:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > \*\*Because I don’t like to take it up my ass I guess im biggoted and stupid. That is a great argument. \*\* No, because you have no idea how to construct a logical argument, you’re a moron. I never said that **your** own sexual preferences made you a bigot. I’m not gay, and i have no interest in being the recipient of anal sex. My own sexual preferences and yours are not the point here. I was criticizing your sweeping generalizations about what “most men and women” think about anal sex, and about the rationale behind homopohobes’ fear of gay men. That you twist this into an argument that your own heterosexuality makes you bigoted just demonstrates your dribbling idiocy. You claim that “The anus was not supposed to be a sex organ.” Well, if you’re talking about sex as a purely procreative act, you might be right. But you’ve still failed to respond to the argument that, in terms of sex acts, anal sex is no more or less natural than fellatio or cunnilingus. Or masturbation, for that matter. I mean, how many times did you get a woman pregnant by going down on her? And how would you feel if a woman refused to go down on you because “The mouth was not supposed to be a sex organ”? > [@](#): > > **Today modern man sees the male homosexual as a male that would try to dominate with anal sex much as the chimp alpha male would.** Well, if you’re arguing that human beings have not evolved any further than chimps, then unfortunately **you** are also providing us with strong evidence that this might indeed be true. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/123 "2003-07-20T20:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > \*\*Because I don’t like to take it up my ass I guess im biggoted and stupid. That is a great argument. This again is my reason and my hypothisis why there is a lot of homophobia among men. Chimpanzees live in a group there is a alpha male he is the only one that gets to mate with the females. This alpha male also pretends to have sex “fake mount” the other males in the group to show he is dominant and that he is the only one that can mate with the females. I feel homophobia is a left over trait from when males would challenge the alpha male. Today modern man sees the male homosexual as a male that would try to dominate with anal sex much as the chimp alpha male would. As a result the modern man feels resentment and anger. It is a primitive reaction. Just like personal space and highway driving. I feel men should be excused for their negitive feeling of male homosexuals because it is in part hardwired in our brains. > > Now when you mop the floor with me try not to pull the underwear up my crack. Please. \*\* I doubt any of us would want to be anywhere remotely near your crack. Oh… the hard wired theory you propose is HORSESHIT. Prove it or lose it. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/124 "2003-07-20T20:25:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > \*\*I feel men should be excused for their negitive feeling of male homosexuals because it is in part hardwired in our brains. > \*\* Bullshit. There are/have been far too many cultures where the majority of males engage in homosexual behaviors for homophobia to be hardwired into our brains. ---
**Author:** ![guava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/71e660/32.png) [@guava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guava)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/125 "2003-07-20T21:18:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Today modern man sees the male homosexual as a male that would try to dominate with anal sex much as the chimp alpha male would. This statement, which echoes the OP, seems plausible to me on certain levels, but on other levels it fails. I’d have to peruse the “Ask the gay guy” threads in order to have more insight into gay behavior. Do gay men take turns being on the receiving end of penetrative sex, or is there generally a dominant/submissive partner in the relationship? From what I’ve seen in movies, people tend to prescribe feminine traits to homosexuals (and therefore link them with the image of a recipient of penetrative sex) rather than imagining them as aggressors. It seems to me that homophobes are more likely to have reduced respect for homosexuals for demonstrating submissiveness, rather than to have hostility towards them for demonstrating dominance. (Now that I think of it, actual behavior of homosexuals is irrelevant here, just the perception by homophobe of homosexual behavior.) As for my personal opinion of homosexuals: I think I feel the same way about homosexuals as I do about swingers, or participants of S&M, or drug users or motorcycle drivers. If I do not know that somebody participates in any of these activities, it obviously couldn’t cloud my opinion of them. But if I find out that a person is a member of any one of these “groups” then I feel uncomfortable around them. It’s not a matter of respect or judgment, it is a matter of how closely I feel I can relate to the person. I don’t feel I need to be “cured” of this uncomfortable feeling either. If I were hostile toward them, that’d be another story, but nobody can say I shouldn’t be uncomfortable. Having said that, let me now comment on my being female. My feelings about gay men are not at all related to how a gay man would treat me. If I were a man, I might very well have additional issues, but I think the base thoughts would be the same. I’m equally uncomfortable around gays and lesbians, if that makes any difference. Do women ever gay bash? ---
**Author:** ![finoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b487fb/32.png) [@finoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finoa)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/126 "2003-07-20T21:20:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \*Because I don’t like to take it up my ass I guess im biggoted and stupid. That is a great argument. This again is my reason and my hypothisis why there is a lot of homophobia among men. Chimpanzees live in a group there is a alpha male he is the only one that gets to mate with the females. This alpha male also pretends to have sex “fake mount” the other males in the group to show he is dominant and that he is the only one that can mate with the females. I feel homophobia is a left over trait from when males would challenge the alpha male. **Today modern man sees the male homosexual as a male that would try to dominate with anal sex much as the chimp alpha male would**. As a result the modern man feels resentment and anger. It is a primitive reaction. Just like personal space and highway driving. I feel men should be excused for their negitive feeling of male homosexuals because it is in part hardwired in our brains. > > Now when you mop the floor with me try not to pull the underwear up my crack. Please. \*Emphasis mine.\ ***BeatenMan** you seem to keep stepping in it. A couple of days ago, I was willing to give you points for conceding that you had something to learn and were willing to try to change, but here you just repeat the same tripe that got you flamed to begin with. Your hyposthesis stated above will never help you communicate with Dopers unless you have something at least _resembling_ scientific backing to refer to. You seem to be hell bent on defending your hypothesis despite lacking evidence. That just don’t fly 'round here. Christ in a sidecar, even I know that. Again you would rather find excuses for homophobia than work on the ignorance that’s resulted from your life inexperience. BTW your response with the smileys actually made me laugh out loud. That was good. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/127 "2003-07-20T21:23:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **BeatenMan** \* > I have been to a doctor more than once for a physical. The anal exam made me feel bloated and made me feel like I needed to take a crap. And that was just two fingers any more than that im sure it would have been even more uncomfortable. It did not feel good in the least bit. Then he gave me two kleenix, just two. It took half a box to feel like a man again. I am, as I’ve noted a few times, a heterosexual woman. Part of being a woman is needing to get gynecological exams at intervals which involves having the doctor insert things into my vagina. It’s not comfortable, it’s not pleasant, and I do resort to that old cliche, “lie back and think of England”. The sensations I experience during a gynecological exam have little or nothing to do with the sensations I experience during sex. Since we’re deep in TMI territory, I admit that I love it when a man places certain things in my vagina during sex, especially himself! I suspect, **BeatenMan** , that you wouldn’t think much of a woman who didn’t enjoy having her vagina penetrated during sex. Your equating a doctor’s exam to anal sex makes exactly as much sense to me as equating a gynecological exam with vaginal sex. I’m not calling you a homophobe; I’m just asking you to realize your arguments are based on emotion, not logic. Sorry about the TMI, but it seemed necessary. A blushing CJ ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/128 "2003-07-21T01:10:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by guava \* > As for my personal opinion of homosexuals: I think I feel the same way about homosexuals as I do about swingers, or participants of S&M, or drug users or motorcycle drivers. If I do not know that somebody participates in any of these activities, it obviously couldn’t cloud my opinion of them. Homosexuality is not an activity; rather, it is a sexual orientation. The two are not inseparable terms (“gay virgin” is not a paradox). > [@](#): > > Do women ever gay bash? Oh, fuck yes. I’ve met female CHILDREN who gaybashed. And re: anal exams, I’d like to note (WARNING: TMI!) that the difference between a medical exam and having someone stimulate the prostate is … really rather marked. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/129 "2003-07-21T02:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by guava \* > \*\*Do women ever gay bash? \*\* The leader of the group of teens who gaybashed me in 1997 was a 16 year old girl. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/130 "2003-07-21T02:32:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by guava \* > \*\*As for my personal opinion of homosexuals: I think I feel the same way about homosexuals as I do about swingers, or participants of S&M, or drug users or motorcycle drivers. If I do not know that somebody participates in any of these activities, it obviously couldn’t cloud my opinion of them. But if I find out that a person is a member of any one of these “groups” then I feel uncomfortable around them. It’s not a matter of respect or judgment, it is a matter of how closely I feel I can relate to the person. I don’t feel I need to be “cured” of this uncomfortable feeling either. If I were hostile toward them, that’d be another story, but nobody can say I shouldn’t be uncomfortable. > \*\* You’ve just compared being gay to using drugs, S&M, and swinging. Here is the difference: being gay is who you are. It is who you are attracted to, which affects ones life as profoundly as it would for a straight man being attracted to women. S&M and swinging is an activity. Drug use is something altogether different, which while being an activity, has darker connotations. You choose to be uncomfortable as you could choose to be educated and move past it. If you want to remain uncomfortable, that is your choice, I just doubt it is the wise one. ---
**Author:** ![guava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/71e660/32.png) [@guava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guava)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/131 "2003-07-21T03:54:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > **You’ve just compared being gay to using drugs, S&M, and swinging.** No, I didn’t. That’s how you interpreted it. I compared my **feelings** about being around known homosexuals to my feelings about being around people who are in other ways different than I am. > [@](#): > > Here is the difference: being gay is who you are. It is who you are attracted to, which affects ones life as profoundly as it would for a straight man being attracted to women. Yes, I realize that now that iampunha pointed it out, that gayness is not an activity like the other things I mentioned. It’s not fair for me to compare motorcyclists to gays because the gays aren’t _choosing_ to participate in this activity/orientation. However, that may just add to my feelings of alienation toward them. I’m just plain uncomfortable around people who aren’t like me. > [@](#): > > You choose to be uncomfortable as you could choose to be educated and move past it. If you want to remain uncomfortable, that is your choice, I just doubt it is the wise one. Nope, I’m not _choosing_ to be uncomfortable. That’s just how I am. And in fact, I am choosing to be educated. I am here, reading this thread, sharing my thoughts, and asking questions. Teach me, and I will learn. But you can’t make me be comfortable about it if I’m not. A step towards being more comfortable might be for me to invite Mockingbird and Esprix and a whole bunch of other people over to my house for a pool party. On the other hand, that could end up making me less comfortable. Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/132 "2003-07-21T05:15:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by guava \* > I’m just plain uncomfortable around people who aren’t like me. Seeking clarification here … but since nobody on Earth is exactly like you, where does the line draw itself regarding what level of dissimilarity is required for you to feel discomfort? I mean, you wouldn’t know it from looking at me (nobody has yet guessed my sexuality based on how I looked. I have to either hint at it or tell them outright. I just don’t flame) what my sexuality is. upon learning it, is there a possibility that you would be uncomfortable because of that new knowledge? This is not meant to castigate, mind you, just to inform _me_. **Mockingbird** ’s methods are not like mine. His work for those who need to be hit in the head with a brick sandwich. Mine work for those who would … well, not respond well to that;) ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/133 "2003-07-21T05:41:55Z")
guava: My apologies. Lately, the board has been rife with bigots who spout intense bigotry and deny that their words are bigoted. While I was not wrong in explaining differences, I did jump to an incorrect conclusion with you. ---
**Author:** ![easy\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/eb8c5e/32.png) [@easy\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/easy_e)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/134 "2003-07-21T14:57:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > \*\*Because I don’t like to take it up my ass I guess im biggoted and stupid. That is a great argument. This again is my reason and my hypothisis why there is a lot of homophobia among men. Chimpanzees live in a group there is a alpha male he is the only one that gets to mate with the females. This alpha male also pretends to have sex “fake mount” the other males in the group to show he is dominant and that he is the only one that can mate with the females. I feel homophobia is a left over trait from when males would challenge the alpha male. Today modern man sees the male homosexual as a male that would try to dominate with anal sex much as the chimp alpha male would. As a result the modern man feels resentment and anger. It is a primitive reaction. Just like personal space and highway driving. I feel men should be excused for their negitive feeling of male homosexuals because it is in part hardwired in our brains. \*\* If you’re going to be a bigot, at least try to be an educated bigot. Chimps are sluts. There is no “alpha male” among chimpanzees. They have sex every which way. A female chimp will have sex with several males in succession. Which is why chimps have the biggest testes size in relation to body size among primates. You’re probably thinking about gorillas. There, a silverback male has a harem of females. But then, let’s not use chimps or gorillas as our examples of proper behavior. We have bigger brains, which should let us reason that homophobia is stupid. But then, if you want to go live like a gorilla, go off to Africa and try to find a troop. They probably wouldn’t take you in, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![guava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/71e660/32.png) [@guava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guava)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/135 "2003-07-24T04:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > \*\*While I was not wrong in explaining differences, I did jump to an incorrect conclusion with you. \*\* No problem. I knew I’d get grief agreeing with that particular poster. I’m sure I could get to know and like some men who happen to be homosexual, but I believe it would be easier to do so if I didn’t know they were homosexual. Assuming that I did happen to get to know a homosexual, and then learned his sexual orientation, then yes, I believe that might make me uncomfortable. I became quite uncomfortable around one of my past boyfriends from high school once I learned that he was a drug user. I’m also a little uncomfortable around my neighbors now that I know that they are Jehovah’s witnesses. Maybe in another ten years I’ll learn to embrace differences instead of shun them. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/136 "2003-07-24T06:07:33Z")
**guava** , what is it in particular about homosexuals that causes you discomfort? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/137 "2003-07-24T09:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **guava** _ > Assuming that I did happen to get to know a homosexual, and then learned his sexual orientation, then yes, I believe that might make me uncomfortable. You’ve now helped me understand why a guy I’ve known since 5th grade sounded afraid when he told me he was gay. ☹ I’d moved back to the East Coast, and we were both in our 30’s and we had gotten back in touch with each other after many years. My response to him was “Why should knowing this about you change the opinion I’ve had of you for all these years?” He remains a good, true friend, and one of the finest people I’ve met. This may be a new thread in and of itself, but _why_ is homosexuality such a big deal? I don’t expect a answer; I just wanted to vent some frustration. CJ ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/138 "2003-07-24T20:10:47Z")
Bump in case **guava** ’s lost track of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![guava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/71e660/32.png) [@guava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guava)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/139 "2003-07-26T03:18:09Z")
Gee, there’s sure a lot of people interested in my opinion! People don’t usually talk about the sex lives of their neighbors unless there seems to be something unusual about them. The uncomfortable feeling I get is probably because of the fact that this person has revealed to me very sensitive itimate details. It’s none of my business that Mockingbird happens to like to sleep with men any more than it’s my business that davebear enjoys engaging in oral sex. (Okay, I admit, it’s interesting, but discussing it on a message board and interacting with these people in person are two different things.) ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830/140 "2003-07-26T04:07:55Z")
**guava** , just because someone is [prefix]sexual doesn’t mean they’re doing ANYTHING. FWIW. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-perspective-on-homophobia-for-me-anyway/188830.md?page=8)