# A new standard for lameness in the Pit- Tarantula, who, and that **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2003, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133 "2003-06-20T11:48:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/1 "2003-06-20T11:48:58Z")
I was inspired by argument on grammar in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=192109). It’s in the Pit, well, because many recent grammar threads have been in the Pit. The sentence under debate reads, “I had a high school teacher that once…” **Tarantula** states that it should be rewritten to say, “I had a high school teacher who once…” as people take who and only things take that. This is not true. Who refers to people, which refers to things, and that can refer to people or to things. Granted, that mostly refers to people in a general sense, as in “teachers that” rather than “a teacher that.” In addition, that is only used to refer to people informally. However, usage of that to refer to people should be acceptable on an _informal_ method of communication such as posting on a message > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > \*\*Only idiots cannot punctuate correctly. This should read - > > “I had a high school teacher \*\* WHO \*\* once said this. She said the reason why \*\* it is impossible for people to be racist against whites,\*\* is that only white people are in the position of social power needed to \*\* enable them to act upon their racism \*\*.” > \*\* In your rewrite, you used “who” in a method that would win the approval of any teacher of English. However, you used a superfluous comma after “whites.” Never insert a single comma between a subject and a predicate. Two commas may be used to bracket off a personal name, an aside or parenthetical expression, or a relative clause that is not essential to the meaning of the sentence as a whole. In fact, in an especially intricate sentence, there may several _pairs_ of commas serving as brackets between the subject and predicate, but there is never a reason to put in only one. The substance of your rewrite has been addressed in the original thread, but I will observe that your newly structured sentence is cumbersome and unwieldy. ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/2 "2003-06-20T11:53:15Z")
Ooooooo! “Cumberson and unweildy!” Man, he put you _ **DOWN** _ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/3 "2003-06-20T11:58:50Z")
Correcting punctuation and spelling in midst of a debate/discussion is indeed quite lame. It shows that you cannot properly debate the points presented in the discussion/debate, instead using your corrections of errors as some sort of debating method. ---
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/4 "2003-06-20T12:05:30Z")
**Aslan2** Glad to see you on the boards today. I hope your day is going better than the last post I read from you. 🙂 I also agree with the OP. I am a terrible speller and I know I get to typing sometimes and don’t go back and check my work and it’s wrong. I honestly don’t understand correcting someone’s spelling, grammar, punctuation or abbreviations for that matter. Just argue your points within a debate and leave the rest alone. Just my $0.02. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/5 "2003-06-20T12:25:53Z")
yeah: I;h8it{when}peepole, do that. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/6 "2003-06-20T12:34:04Z")
I find most posts by the Grammar Police to be unnecessary and annoying – and particularly so when, as in **sugaree** ’s example, the Grammar Patrolman presumes to criticize a proper usage on the basis of an erroneous “rule.” Having said that, I want to pick a nit in the OP. The no-comma-after-verb “rule” is also not a valid one, and **Tarantula** ’s reconstruction is not in error in using it. At about the time of the Founding Fathers, it was a nearly invariant usage, following German usage, for formal English to place a comma following the verb where there was an extended subject and an extended predicate. Good usage here pays more attention to style than to supposed rules. Certainly “That is, incorrect” is itself incorrect, but in an extended construction, a comma setting off the verb (either preceding or following, as good taste may indicate) may very well be stylistically appropriate. In fact, I can compose a sentence that would require a comma to be even marginally readable: “The reason that the proper verb in that sentence is “is,” is that…” ---
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/7 "2003-06-20T12:35:37Z")
If a person were to be typing like that, it’d be unlikely that they would be involved in any form of serious debate. Do you ever see people typing like that on the SDMB? Or more specifically the GD/Pit? It’s pretty damn rare to find people speaking completely in leetspeak or have their messages made completely indeciperable by their spelling/grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Tarantula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e274bd/32.png) [@Tarantula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarantula)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/8 "2003-06-20T13:07:10Z")
\*\*Sugaree \*\*- you’re just fucking wrong. It pisses me off no end, when people cannot string a sentence together. And in case your lame-ass IQ couldn’t pick it up, I was correcting gammar, not punctuation. You (are a) dick. ---
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/9 "2003-06-20T13:10:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > \*\* > > And in case your lame-ass IQ couldn’t pick it up, I was correcting gammar, not punctuation. > > \*\* Yet you state: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Tarantula > Only idiots cannot punctuate correctly. This should read That’s an odd mispelling. ---
**Author:** ![Tarantula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e274bd/32.png) [@Tarantula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarantula)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/10 "2003-06-20T13:13:49Z")
Yeah - whatever. My punctuation, as Polycarp agreed was fine. This is the most stupid thread ever. No doubt started by one of the most stupid people ever. ---
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/11 "2003-06-20T13:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > > * * * > > I was correcting gammar > \*\* Doc Bruce Banner, belted by gammar rays! HULK! HULK! ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/12 "2003-06-20T13:19:27Z")
Eh, **Tarantula’s** comma usage may not have been wrong, but it certainly is unwieldy and indicative of a person with no style. Tsk, tsk. ---
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/13 "2003-06-20T13:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > \*\*Yeah - whatever. My punctuation, as Polycarp agreed was fine. > > \*\* No- You said that sugaree’s “lame ass IQ couldn’t pick up that I was correcting grammar, rather than punctuation”. Yet in the originial thread you stated that you were correcting punctuation. Don’t act like such a hostile jerk. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/14 "2003-06-20T13:23:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > \*\*Yeah - whatever. My punctuation, as Polycarp agreed was fine. > \*\* I believe you meant, “My punctuation, as Polycarp agreed , was fine.” I’m with **sugaree** and **Aslan2**. Poor grammar isn’t nearly as irritating as the people who constantly have to point it out. Get a damn hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/15 "2003-06-20T13:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > \*\*\ > > This is the most stupid thread ever. > > No doubt started by one of the most stupid people ever. \*\* Don’t you mean: This is the most stupid **est** thread ever. No doubt started by one of the most stupid **est** people ever. God. When will people learn? ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/16 "2003-06-20T13:41:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sugaree \* > **In your rewrite, you used “who” in a method that would win the approval of any teacher of English. However, you used a superfluous comma after "whites."** “… any teacher of English\*\*; h\*\*owever, you used a superfluous…” What? What’d _I_ say? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/17 "2003-06-20T13:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bruce\_Daddy \* > \*\*Don’t you mean: > > This is the most stupid **est** thread ever. > > No doubt started by one of the most stupid **est** people ever. > God. When will people learn? \*\* “Most stupidest”…? Should I be feeling the gentle wind of a fly-by whooshing tickling my forehead right now? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/18 "2003-06-20T13:47:55Z")
One hopes, **SkipMagic** , one hopes. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/19 "2003-06-20T13:49:30Z")
I was just reading this thread in GQ. I was wondering how long it would take to make its way to the pit. (I almost typed **it’s** , but luckily I noticed and corrected it. I wouldn’t want my intelligence questioned on a silly spelling/grammar mistake.) ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133/20 "2003-06-20T13:50:23Z")
**Tarantula**? Who that? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-standard-for-lameness-in-the-pit-tarantula-who-and-that/183133.md?page=2)