# A New (to me) identity concept: Plural Persons, Systems, Multiplicity, Alters, Headmates **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-to-me-identity-concept-plural-persons-systems-multiplicity-alters-headmates/940153 "2021-04-16T16:05:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-to-me-identity-concept-plural-persons-systems-multiplicity-alters-headmates/940153/21 "2021-04-19T20:31:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think this differs in comparisons to gender fluidity or trans in one important way and that is there is no abdication of responsibility for expression or action based on which personality happens to be presenting at any given time. True, and I’m fine with the prospect that the social etiquette of interactions with people who identify as multiple may include demands for assuming responsibility and/or social exclusion. I don’t see anything wrong with saying to your friend Maggie (who is sometimes Milly or Molly or May), “Look, I’m always glad to see you, but Milly is a total byatch to me and the last time she was here she spitefully trashed my kitchen, so Milly is not welcome in my house. And if you and Molly and May can’t guarantee that Milly will stay away from me then I can’t be friends with you anymore.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-to-me-identity-concept-plural-persons-systems-multiplicity-alters-headmates/940153/22 "2021-04-22T18:38:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > For trans folk, the accommodations are overwhelmingly trivial: you use different pronouns, you don’t fuss when they use different bathrooms, you don’t share your unasked-for opinions about gender norms. Well … maybe … in entering different online communities, I see that it already has started to go further. For example, saying “I prefer not to enter into a sexual relationship/encounter with transgender person,” gets one labeled as a bigot. The reply is “Oh, so you’re saying I’m not a _real_ man/woman?” But that’s a different conversation. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Unless you know you’re dealing with someone with a diagnosed mental illness, why should this idiosyncracy be viewed as anything more than a delusional affectation or some sort of voluntary reality avoidance and escapism mechanism. Exactly. If it’s not literally a disorder or delusion, my reaction is going to be “Okay, you’re some asshole pretending to be something special. Bye.” > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > We are all plural people. Even at the physical level, your brain is separated into 2 hemispheres that are often only pretending to work together. So far as I know, this is not an accurate summary of how the hemispheres of the brain operate. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If you want to try on a new identity in real life, you just start saying it and doing it for a while. Maybe you convert to the new you, maybe you abandon it as if it never happened, maybe you maintain both lives separately. It’s how a growing person lives and grows in a society that pressures us to be all things to all people, and where our identity may be pretty badly mangled right out of the gate in childhood. I think this is waaaay overstated. Yes, you can change over time, and you can be different in different circumstances. But you don’t claim that that was literally a different person in the past. It’s all fundamentally still you. Even if a person has an actual disorder like DID, when it comes to dealing with that person directly, I’m going to take into account all the behavior and actions of all those personas, not just treat that “fronting” persona as the only one present. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > When an online system compels you to pin yourself to exactly one identity and preserve all your documents in amber so that an authority can keep you pigeonholed in the same identity forever, that’s a technical artifice that doesn’t remotely resemble how identity works in real life. I think this is a massive overstatement of how things work in real life. You don’t require a person to remain unchanged throughout their lives, but you also don’t allow them to disclaim their prior behavior or actions, and I’m not just talking from a legal point of view. If I’m faced with a person who wants me to interact in such a way that sometimes this person is the person who did something in the past and sometimes E isn’t, then I’m not going to put any trust in that person. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t see anything wrong with saying to your friend Maggie (who is sometimes Milly or Molly or May), “Look, I’m always glad to see you, but Milly is a total byatch to me and the last time she was here she spitefully trashed my kitchen, so Milly is not welcome in my house. And if you and Molly and May can’t guarantee that Milly will stay away from me then I can’t be friends with you anymore.” Right, and if I’m faced with someone who takes the position that “You can’t attribute behavior or actions to me if I claim that the ‘persona’ I am currently fronting isn’t responsible for it,” then my attitude is going to be “If that’s the way you operate, then I don’t want to deal with you at all, formally, informally, socially, or professionally.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-to-me-identity-concept-plural-persons-systems-multiplicity-alters-headmates/940153/23 "2021-04-22T18:46:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Well … maybe … in entering different online communities, I see that it already has started to go further. For example, saying “I prefer not to enter into a sexual relationship/encounter with transgender person,” gets one labeled as a bigot. The reply is “Oh, so you’re saying I’m not a _real_ man/woman?” But that’s a different conversation. There’s an important few points here, too: 1. Not all accusations of bigotry are accurate, and contrary to some folks’ belief, it’s appropriate to dispute such a charge if it’s inaccurate. (But it’s wise to consider whether you’re disputing because it’s inaccurate or because it’s provocative). 2. How you present something is important. If you say, “I prefer to engage in romantic relationships with cisgender women (or men),” that’s not challenging the reality of someone’s gender identity. 3. It’s always worth considering one’s own cultural baggage and figuring out whether it’s harmful. Folks before have said things like, “It’s my sexual preference only to have romantic relationships with White people,” and that’s come under reasonable scrutiny. Other attitudes ought to be available for similar scrutiny. Bring it back around to plural persons, I’ll state right up that I’d not want to be in a romantic relationship with any or all persons who identify as part of a plural system. Someone might call me a bigot for that, and that’s fine for them to say that; I’d hear their case, and decide whether I thought they were full of shit, or had a point. I’d try to make that decision without defensiveness, but of course I might fail. I’d hear them out. But right now “systems” sounds to me like an identity that is not trivially accommodated in many ways. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-to-me-identity-concept-plural-persons-systems-multiplicity-alters-headmates/940153/24 "2021-04-22T18:55:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Exactly. If it’s not literally a disorder or delusion, my reaction is going to be “Okay, you’re some asshole pretending to be something special. Bye.” Trouble is, it’s difficult to be sure when interactions are limited to the internet and more often than not anonymous. As we’ve all experienced, anybody can claim anything, and to a large extent people tend to find a sympathetic audience willing to accept claims with little or no evidence. I mean, for all I know, you’re actually Wonder Woman. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-to-me-identity-concept-plural-persons-systems-multiplicity-alters-headmates/940153/25 "2021-04-23T02:21:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Trouble is, it’s difficult to be sure when interactions are limited to the internet and more often than not anonymous. As we’ve all experienced, anybody can claim anything, and to a large extent people tend to find a sympathetic audience willing to accept claims with little or no evidence. But this is the online presence of a real-life local group. Presumably, when in-person meetings resume, these people will present themselves as plural persons/systems and expect everyone to accommodate this identity. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I mean, for all I know, you’re actually Wonder Woman. Shh! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-to-me-identity-concept-plural-persons-systems-multiplicity-alters-headmates/940153.md?page=1)