# A new twist on mailing back the return envelopes from unsolicited credit offers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 29, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578 "2008-02-29T00:15:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/1 "2008-02-29T00:15:30Z")
I’m one of those people who is kind enough to send the prepaid return envelopes from unsolicited credit card offers back to the banks that sent them. But lately the envelopes have been “improved” with what I suspect is an empty threat aimed at people like me. On the back it now says: > [@](#): > > It is a violation of federal law to steal or possess stolen mail, and to defraud (or attempt to defraud) by mail a financial institution. 18 USC 1341 [Here’s a picture](http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1473/5747827/15966180/306353563.jpg). There is also a barcode with “Locator Identification” written just above. As if the bank can simply scan the envelope and see that it came from me. I suspect this barcode is identical on all envelopes sent out in these offers, maybe others can check their junk mail and report back. The number under my barcode is visible in the linked image. My question is about the defrauding part. Could sending back an empty envelope (or one stuffed with the junk flyers from the offer) be considerd as an attempt to defraud? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/2 "2008-02-29T00:17:23Z")
I would think that notice is there more in an attempt to deter people who might use those offers to attempt an identity theft by representing themselves as you at a new address, but that’s about 90% WAG. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/3 "2008-02-29T00:30:30Z")
Could mailing back unfilled forms be reasonably considered an attempt to defraud the financial institution? I suppose you’re attempting to make them waste their bulk rate postage. But you’re not passing yourself off as someone you’re not. I tend to agree with **Knead** ’s WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/4 "2008-02-29T00:30:30Z")
[QUOTE=Patty O’Furniture] Could sending back an empty envelope (or one stuffed with the junk flyers from the offer) be considerd as an attempt to defraud? [/QUOTE] It is defrauding the rest of the taxpayers & postal customers in the USA. Because the company can get their money refunded by the Post Office for any empty envelopes (or ones stuffed with the junk flyers). But the Post Office has already done the work of delivering the envelope to them, spending money on this delivery, which they will now not get paid for. And they even have to pay a Postal clerk’s time to process the refund. All extra expense, which will inevitably be paid by the rest of us postal customers. Thanks a lot for defrauding the rest of us. Hope it made you feel real proud of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/5 "2008-02-29T00:51:39Z")
Let’s see… Assuming the postage on one of those envelopes is, oh, around 30 cents (it’s probably a lot less, but let’s go nuts). Let’s go even more nuts and say none of it is profit–it costs the taxpayers the whole thirty cents for each empty envelope. How many taxpayers are there in the US? I dunno, but let’s pretend there are only 100 million. That means that each taxpayer’s burden for **Patty** ’s evil deed is… _clicketyclicketyclick_ $0.000000003 Guess I’ll get that second job now. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/6 "2008-02-29T00:53:55Z")
> [@](#): > > It is defrauding the rest of the taxpayers & postal customers in the USA. Pheww… pressure’s off! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/7 "2008-02-29T01:01:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Because the company can get their money refunded by the Post Office for any empty envelopes (or ones stuffed with the junk flyers). (You know this is coming) Cite? Also, cite for how much the USPS has actually paid out to junk mail senders? ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/8 "2008-02-29T01:16:29Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] It is defrauding the rest of the taxpayers & postal customers in the USA. Because the company can get their money refunded by the Post Office for any empty envelopes (or ones stuffed with the junk flyers). But the Post Office has already done the work of delivering the envelope to them, spending money on this delivery, which they will now not get paid for. And they even have to pay a Postal clerk’s time to process the refund. All extra expense, which will inevitably be paid by the rest of us postal customers. Thanks a lot for defrauding the rest of us. Hope it made you feel real proud of yourself. [/QUOTE] So just put a note in there saying thanks for the offer, but I’m not interested. No free postage for them, more paid postage for the USPS,( which judging by their pathetic attempt to get a cut of their proposed email tax, they’re desperately looking for) Everybody wins! ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/9 "2008-02-29T01:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] … the company can get their money refunded by the Post Office for any empty envelopes (or ones stuffed with the junk flyers). [/QUOTE] I’d like a cite for this, too, because I’ve been using business reply mail for ten years and have never heard this. Now, I almost never get empty BRM envelopes, so I haven’t had much incentive to look into this. You may be right. But I’m skeptical. As for the OP, I’m pretty sure that **Knead** is right. This is a anti-identity theft measure, not a way to track down those dastardly scoundrels who mail back empty BRM envelopes. As to that childish practice, remember what Mr. Prosser told Arthur Dent about the amount of damage the bulldozer would suffer if he let it roll over Arthur? “None at all.” This is _precisely_ the impact those empty envelopes have on direct mailers. You are not deterring them. You are not giving them something to think about. They don’t care or even think about them. The only conceivable impact you are having is to increase infinitesimally the cost of every product and service that uses direct mail, which probably includes many products and services you buy. But don’t imagine that you’re actually accomplishing anything. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/10 "2008-02-29T01:50:52Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] It is defrauding the rest of the taxpayers & postal customers in the USA. Because the company can get their money refunded by the Post Office for any empty envelopes (or ones stuffed with the junk flyers). [/QUOTE] If this is true, the Postal Service isn’t doing much to publicize it. From the [Postal Service website](http://pe.usps.com/text/qsg300/Q507a.htm): > [@](#): > > For an annual permit fee, a business reply mail (BRM) permit is available for distributing business reply cards, envelopes, self-mailers, cartons, and labels. BRM allows the permit holder to receive First-Class Mail and Priority Mail back from customers by **paying postage only on the mail returned**. Says nothing about what the returned pieces must contain. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/11 "2008-02-29T13:15:24Z")
[QUOTE=commasense] You are not deterring them. You are not giving them something to think about. They don’t care or even think about them. The only conceivable impact you are having is to increase infinitesimally the cost of every product and service that uses direct mail, which probably includes many products and services you buy. But don’t imagine that you’re actually accomplishing anything. [/QUOTE] I’ve heard that before, but usually regarding things like picking up litter, or voting. Maybe by some miracle a million people or 2 will hear about this, and this practice will catch on and then maybe only 75 million trees will be used the following year for junk mail instead of 100 million. Probably not, but while sending back empty reply envelopes may be childish, sending back all the contents of what they sent you certainly is not. Not any more childish than sending 50 million people bits of garbage to throw away every day. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/12 "2008-02-29T13:48:50Z")
For that matter, what were to happen if I were to write “return to sender” on the envelope? I have heard that the post office would just throw them away. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/13 "2008-02-29T13:50:10Z")
[QUOTE=Bootis] I’ve heard that before, but usually regarding things like picking up litter, or voting. Maybe by some miracle a million people or 2 will hear about this, and this practice will catch on and then maybe only 75 million trees will be used the following year for junk mail instead of 100 million. Probably not, but while sending back empty reply envelopes may be childish, sending back all the contents of what they sent you certainly is not. Not any more childish than sending 50 million people bits of garbage to throw away every day. [/QUOTE] You know how there is a “Do not call,” list? There should also be a “Do not send credit card application” list. After joining this list, for every letter telling me that I’m approved for a credit card I don’t want, I can take it to court and get, let’s say, $1,000, from the bank which sent the letter. In my dreams, I know. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/14 "2008-02-29T14:18:16Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] You know how there is a “Do not call,” list? There should also be a “Do not send credit card application” list. After joining this list, for every letter telling me that I’m approved for a credit card I don’t want, I can take it to court and get, let’s say, $1,000, from the bank which sent the letter. In my dreams, I know. [/QUOTE] Is this a woosh? [Of course you can opt out of pre-screened credit card offers.](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/1/13940/79585) [You can also get off of major direct advertising lists.](http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs4-junk.htm) I don’t think this will stop your local bar owner from mailing you a flyer about his hot wings special on Tuesday, but it will stop the big guys. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/15 "2008-02-29T14:20:44Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] You know how there is a “Do not call,” list? There should also be a “Do not send credit card application” list. … In my dreams, I know. [/QUOTE] You dreams are answered. [This site](https://www.optoutprescreen.com/?rf=t) is a joint venture between the three major credit reporting agencies to allow a one stop opt-out of credit card offers: > [@](#): > > [OptOutPrescreen.com](http://OptOutPrescreen.com) is a centralized service to accept and process requests from consumers to “Opt-In” or “Opt-Out” of firm offers of credit or insurance. [OptOutPrescreen.com](http://OptOutPrescreen.com) is a joint venture among Equifax Information Services, LLC, Experian Information Solutions, Inc., Innovis Data Solutions, Inc., and TransUnion, LLC (collectively the “Consumer Credit Reporting Companies”). > > Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA), Equifax, Experian, Innovis, and TransUnion, are permitted to include your name on lists used by creditors or insurers to make firm offers of credit or insurance. The FCRA also allows you the ability to “Opt-Out”, which prevents Consumer Credit Reporting Companies from providing your credit file information for firm offers of credit or insurance that are not initiated by you. If you want to remove your name from lists supplied by the four Consumer Credit Reporting Companies listed above for firm offers of credit or insurance, you will need to provide your personal information on the “Click Here to Opt-In or Opt-Out” link. Once you provide your information through this secure website, your name will be removed from inclusion on firm offer lists provided by all four companies. If you have previously completed a request to Opt-Out from receiving firm offers and would like to Opt-In, you may also complete your request on this website. The personal information you provide is confidential and will only be used to process your request. You can also complete this process via phone by dialing 888-5-OPT-OUT (888-567-8688). > > [OptOutPrescreen.com](http://OptOutPrescreen.com) is the only internet website authorized by Equifax, Experian, Innovis and TransUnion for this purpose under the FCRA. Please note that, as a security precaution, consumers should never provide their personal information to any other company or person in connection with requesting Opt-In or Opt-Out services. [OptOutPrescreen.com](http://OptOutPrescreen.com) will not contact consumers via email, telemarketing or direct mail solicitations. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/16 "2008-02-29T21:17:18Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] For that matter, what were to happen if I were to write “return to sender” on the envelope? I have heard that the post office would just throw them away. [/quote] Possibly true – it depends on the class of mail. On First Class mail, “Return to Sender” is sent back to the mailer. Undeliverable or Moved-No Forwarding Address also goes back to the sender. That’s free, as part of First Class service. But on Bulk mail (like these), it depends on what the sender has indicated they are willing to pay for. Any action gets charged to the mailer. There will be a notice printed right on the envelope, usually under the stamp or under the return address, indicating what services the sender wants: “Address Service Requested” – the letter is forwarded, and the mailer gets a notice of the new address (and pays for both of these). “Return Service Requested” – not forwarded, just returned to mailer with the new address indicated. “Forwarding Service Requested” – only forwarded (or returned if un-forwardable). Mailer gets no notice (except for returned ones). “Change Service Requested” – not forwarded or returned, just discarded. But mailer gets a notification of the new address. But if none of these are printed on the envelope, the Post Office just discards it when it is undeliverable or refused (like you writing “Return to Sender” on it). They won’t spend money on returning it to the sender unless the sender has indicated a willingness to pay for this. (Many don’t, because they are using a rented mailing list, and so aren’t concerned about making corrections to the list.) ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/17 "2008-02-29T22:56:28Z")
Just cut off the barcode and tape a regular small piece of paper in it’s place. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/18 "2008-02-29T23:03:19Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] Because the company can get their money refunded by the Post Office for any empty envelopes (or ones stuffed with the junk flyers). [/QUOTE] 😕 What is the company supposed to do, collect the empty envelopes, take them back to the Post Office, and say, “These were empty when we opened them– **cross our hearts and hope to die**!”? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/19 "2008-02-29T23:06:47Z")
[QUOTE=iamthewalrus(:3=] Could mailing back unfilled forms be reasonably considered an attempt to defraud the financial institution? I suppose you’re attempting to make them waste their bulk rate postage. But you’re not passing yourself off as someone you’re not. I tend to agree with **Knead** ’s WAG. [/QUOTE] Perhaps I’m simply transferring the cost of disposing of waste THEY generated back to them? “Here’s your trash back, the city charges me by the pound when I take my trash to the dump…” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578/20 "2008-03-01T01:05:58Z")
[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig] 😕 What is the company supposed to do, collect the empty envelopes, take them back to the Post Office, and say, “These were empty when we opened them– **cross our hearts and hope to die**!”? [/QUOTE] Basically, yes. When a company pays into its Advance Deposit Account at their local Post Office, they can claim credit for “Improper use of Business Reply Mail”. I believe there is the usual disclaimer on the bottom of that receipt ‘By signing this form, I certify that the information herein is accurate …’. Presumably, that Post Office could request evidence, such as having them bring in the empty envelopes, ones pasted to a brick or stuffed with scrap, etc., but it’s unlikely that they would actually do so. The postal workers have better things to do than look at such junk envelopes. Besides, these are major customers of that Post Office – they work together all the time, and there is a certain amount of trust between them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-new-twist-on-mailing-back-the-return-envelopes-from-unsolicited-credit-offers/439578.md?page=2)