# A nightmare for the Democrats? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561 "2004-09-22T21:27:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/1 "2004-09-22T21:27:04Z")
Suppose Bush & Cheney win in November. Now Cheney’s getting old and has a bad heart so he resigns in late 05. Bush appoints someone new as VP - I’m not sure why but Condi Rice comes to mind so lets stick with her. In late 06 or early 07 he decides to carry the can for Iraq and resign. So Condi’s the new President. With a clean slate (q.v. Poindexter and Iran/Contra and Bush). Nightmare or dream? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/2 "2004-09-22T21:33:40Z")
The utter unlikeliness of that scenario aside, I don’t know that Rice would be that bad if she weren’t beholden to Bush. I think she’s put a lot of ridiculous spin on a lot of stuff, if not outright lied, but that’s pretty much her job, isn’t it? She seems intelligent enough. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/3 "2004-09-22T21:36:42Z")
You seriously think the Good Ole Boys are going to allow Condi get the hotseat while there’s still other healthy Bush siblings to put in office? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/4 "2004-09-22T21:39:38Z")
There was an AP article last week that discussed the possible mass exodus of cabinet members if Bush were re-elected. [Here](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=9&u=/ap/20040917/ap_on_el_pr/bush_cabinet) it is. It’s not unexpected to see many of them leave - many of them have stayed on longer than most cabinet members in the past. > [@](#): > > National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) and Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge have told associates they don’t plan to stick around, though Bush may try to persuade them. Rice could probably have her pick of jobs, and Bush may appeal to her to take Powell’s place, or even head the Pentagon (news - web sites) if there’s a vacancy. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/5 "2004-09-22T21:49:40Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > There was an AP article last week that discussed the possible mass exodus of cabinet members if Bush were re-elected. [Here](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=9&u=/ap/20040917/ap_on_el_pr/bush_cabinet) it is. It’s not unexpected to see many of them leave - many of them have stayed on longer than most cabinet members in the past. Interesting article. Suppose then that the 2008 ticket was McCain/Rice or Rice/McCain? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/6 "2004-09-22T22:49:51Z")
A McCain/Rice ticket would be tough to beat, but a lot depends on circumstance. In the public’s eye, Rice might be heavily tied to the attempts by the Bush administration to blockade the 9/11 commission. If there’s another terrorist attack in the United States, it will be hard for Rice not to shoulder some portion of the blame. On the other hand, if the situation regarding terrorism worldwide improves remarkably before 2008 she would be a good pick. On the financial side we’ll still be facing large annual deficits in 2008 no matter what happens, and the public at large may start paying attention to the bad news coming from the trustees of the Medicare and Social Security trust funds. Since McCain has always been an outspoken opponent of wasteful spending, he would look like a potential savior in that department. Of course there still remains the question of how willing the public will be to forgive politicians for the disaster in Iraq. If it goes really horrendously, we might see the GOP trying to bring in a governor or some other outsider rather than a D.C. insider in 2008, to get away from the association with the Iraq war. Of course there’s still the question: the RNC types were not interested in letting McCain get the nomination in 2000, so why would they be in 2008 after he’s done yet more things to annoy them, such as opposing the damn fool amendment? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/7 "2004-09-22T23:08:58Z")
I like Condi (been following her career since her early years at Stanford), but she’s never been elected to public office, and it would seem awfully risky to bump her into the VP slot before that happens. I do think it would be wise for the Pubs to get rid of Cheney at some point, if it can be done without a lot of bad PR. He won’t be running for prez in '08, so he’s taking up the VP slot, so to speak, of someone who could. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see him resign sometime in '05 or '06 for health reasons if Bush wins in November. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/8 "2004-09-22T23:16:00Z")
If it were McCain/Powell or something like that, I would be OK with it. I don’t care if a Republican is president, _per se_. I’d vote for most Republicans this year if I thought they had a better shot at beating Bush than Kerry does. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/9 "2004-09-22T23:16:38Z")
Jeb Bush’s term as governor of Florida will be up in 2006. He’ll be available . . . You think that’s too much nepotism? JFK got away with appointing his brother as attorney general. In any case, Rice wouldn’t be tapped to replace Cheney. It would have to be a Pubbie governor, senator, or congressman. Or maybe, just maybe, Powell. I wonder if that would get the Pubs more black votes than it would lose them white votes – ever since Nixon, conservative and, not to put too fine a point on it, racist white Southerners have been the backbone of the party. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/10 "2004-09-22T23:21:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Or maybe, just maybe, Powell. I wonder if that would get the Pubs more black votes than it would lose them white votes – ever since Nixon, conservative and, not to put too fine a point on it, racist white Southerners have been the backbone of the party. Powell is an honorary white guy. 🙂 I’m thinking of the Dave Chapelle skit about the racial draft (patterned after a sports draft). The white team chose Colin Powell. If you haven’t seen it, it’s a riot. A lot of truth in that guy’s comedy. And, as per **monstro** , Powell passes the “paper bag test”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/11 "2004-09-22T23:24:04Z")
Condie Rice is pro-choice. The Pubs will never nominate a pro-choice candidate, either at the top or the bottpm of the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/12 "2004-09-22T23:28:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Condie Rice is pro-choice. The Pubs will never nominate a pro-choice candidate, either at the top or the bottpm of the ticket. That settles it. Absolutely right. Republican politics today is such that a pro-choice candidate has no hope of getting on the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/13 "2004-09-22T23:32:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Or maybe, just maybe, Powell. I _sincerely_ doubt that Cheney would resign if he thought there were any chance that Powell would be taking his place. ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/14 "2004-09-22T23:46:22Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Powell is an honorary white guy. 🙂 > > I’m thinking of the Dave Chapelle skit about the racial draft (patterned after a sports draft). The white team chose Colin Powell. If you haven’t seen it, it’s a riot. A lot of truth in that guy’s comedy. Didn’t the black team protest until the white team offered to take Condi, also? Personally, Condi is one of the most visible reasons for my anger towards the Bush administration: she is a complete and utter fuck-up in her job. From the August 6, 2001 PDB, to the post-invasion reconstruction which still hasn’t been fixed, she’s made a ton of mistakes, yet has never been called on the carpet for it (of course, that’s the Dubya style). And I always thought the quote unquote nightmare for the Democrats was Rudy Giuliani, although you’d be looking at a scenario like Al Gore in 2000, when much was made of how he didn’t win his home state. I have to think that if Rudy ties himself to Dubya, he’s going to start to stink like him, too, to New Yorkers. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/15 "2004-09-22T23:50:45Z")
Rice and Powell would never get the Veep spot, if only because it’d cheese off the closet racists still lurking in the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/16 "2004-09-22T23:52:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Condie Rice is pro-choice. The Pubs will never nominate a pro-choice candidate, either at the top or the bottpm of the ticket. It would be tough to sell a pro-choice candidate on the ticket, but I think Powell could have had the slot in '00 if he had wanted it. With the proper extenuating circumstances, I think it could happen. I do agree that it would highly unusual. Rice does not have the gravitas that Powell does (at least not yet), and probably couldn’t overcome the pro-choice issue. I’d be more confident saying that the Dems would never allow a pro-life candidate on the top or bottom of their ticket. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/17 "2004-09-22T23:53:54Z")
> [@Airblairxxx](#): > > Didn’t the black team protest until the white team offered to take Condi, also? Yes! I almost split my side on that one… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/18 "2004-09-23T00:00:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’d be more confident saying that the Dems would never allow a pro-life candidate on the top or bottom of their ticket. The Dems tried to get a pro-life candidate on _this_ ticket but he turned them down. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/19 "2004-09-23T00:25:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Dems tried to get a pro-life candidate on _this_ ticket but he turned them down. McCain denies this. Why don’t you take him at his word in the same way you took Hillary at her word that she was never interested in the VP (or P) slot in '04? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561/20 "2004-09-23T00:57:10Z")
McCain denied that he was formally offered the spot because he wasn’t. That is purely a matter of [semantics](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/06/12/MNGOB7598R1.DTL&type=printable), though. > [@](#): > > Kerry, the Massachusetts senator, made his first direct overtures to McCain about three weeks after locking up the Democratic nomination in March, and approached him again, in person or by telephone, as many as seven times, as recently as last week, according to one person who has discussed the issue with both. > > “It was always artfully phrased, but he asked him on several occasions to serve as his running mate,” the individual said. "He’d say, ‘I don’t want to formally ask, because I don’t want to be formally rejected, but having said that, would you do it?’ or ‘I need you to do it,’ or ‘I want you to do it.’ > > “It was always phrased in such a way as to give both men plausible deniability,” the individual added. Everybody knows that McCain was offered the veep spot and McCain’s denial is a parsing of the word “offered.” It’s not really comparable to Hillary anyway. There are witnesses who say that McCain was offered the veep spot. There are no witnesses that say Hillary has ever expressed a desire to be president. Are you seriously denying that Kerry made overtures (however elliptical) to McCain about the veep spot? Would you deny that the Dems would have loved to have McCain on the ticket? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-nightmare-for-the-democrats/265561.md?page=2)