# A noble question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 27, 2002, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-noble-question/121061 "2002-07-27T03:14:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gfloyd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d2c977/32.png) [@gfloyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gfloyd)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-noble-question/121061/1 "2002-07-27T03:14:15Z")
If the heir to a king or queen is the crown prince or princess, what is the proper title for the heir to the lower forms of nobility (ie Dukes, Earls, Barons, and the like)? ---
**Author:** ![I\_forgot\_my\_username](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecd19e/32.png) [@I\_forgot\_my\_username](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_forgot_my_username)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-noble-question/121061/2 "2002-07-27T03:25:31Z")
I am not sure, but I think that the Dukes, Barons, etc are appointed to that position by the King or Queen, not by ancestery. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-noble-question/121061/3 "2002-07-27T04:43:49Z")
In the English system of heriditary peerages, the eldest son of a duke, marquess or earl normally has a “courtesy title” - that is, the eldest son is known by one of the titles that dad has. (Normally by the time a family gets to the rank of a duke, marquess or earl, they’ve picked up a few of the lower titles on the way up.) For example, the eldest son of the [Duke of Norfolk](http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_615398.html?menu=news.royals) has the courtesy title of the Earl of Arundel. The eldest son of the [Duke of Argyll](http://www.ccsna.org/mcm.htm) is known as the Marquis of Lorne. And, from [this site](http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg61/gg61-45602.0-prov.html), I infer that the eldest son of the Duke of Westminster is known as Earl Grosvenor, since the current Duke’s ancester held that title before becoming the Duke of Westminster. The eldest son of the [Marquess of Milford Haven](http://members.surfeu.fi/thaapanen/s361.html) has the courtesy title of the Earl of Medina. For Viscounts and Barons, there normally isn’t a courtesy title, just an “Honourable.” ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-noble-question/121061/4 "2002-07-27T04:48:44Z")
I thought that a “crown prince” was not an heir to the throne, but the titular ruler of the country. A “prince,” on the other hand, would be someone in line for the throne. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-noble-question/121061/5 "2002-07-27T04:50:16Z")
I meant to add: in other European systems, I believe all of the male children of a noble held the same rank. So all the male children of a Russian count, for example, were also counts. I think the same system applied in Italy. However, I’m just going on a hazy memory here. Perhaps **guinastasia** will come by to comment. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-noble-question/121061/6 "2002-07-27T05:01:09Z")
The term “crown prince” is/was used in some monarchies to mean the heir to the throne - for example, the heir to the Kaiser was known as the Crown Prince. I don’t think it’s used for ruling princes, but I could be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-noble-question/121061/7 "2002-07-27T05:21:33Z")
Monaco is an independent principality, so I looked there. On the website for Monaco tourism, there’s a chronology of the [ruling princes.](http://www.monte-carlo.mc/principatodimonaco/globalinformations/history_2.html) My Italian is almost non-existent, but it doesn’t look to me that they use the term “crown prince” - just “prince.” For example: > [@](#): > > 9 Maggio 1949 > S.A.S Il Principe Ranieri III succede a suo nonno, il Principe Luigi II. which I’m guessing would translate as: > [@](#): > > 9 May 1949 > His Serene Highness the Prince Ranier III succeeds to his grandfather(?), the Prince Luigi II.