# A non-Communist Russian Empire and WW2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836 "2015-10-16T19:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/21 "2015-10-17T23:32:52Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Counter-point: > Russia would have been a lot better off without Stalin’s purge of the army. Possibly. Indeed Stalin’s system was as harsh as US Criminal Justice System today – incarceration rate was about the same. But it is possible that without the purge, there would have been another revolution in Russia. Stalin was a part of 1917 revolution, and understood revolutionaries very well. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/22 "2015-10-17T23:34:48Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > I would have thought literacy would be a problem. It was low under the Tzars and the communists worked on a literacy program. If you want a modern war capability I would think literacy is the essential basic requirement. > > Would Tzarist Russia ever want to educate the peasantry ? > > [Likbez - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likbez) Definitely it would have meant defeat and disaster for USSR. I would not exist. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/23 "2015-10-17T23:42:58Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > This…and Stalins invasions all along their western frontier left the new borders undefended allowing the nazis to capture 3 million soviet soldiers in the first weeks of the war. Before Soviet population realized that Hitler had a genocidal policy, many soldiers surrendered simply because they did not want to fight for Communism. But then the population realized that the Nazis were a much greater evil. A system which incarcerates hundreds thousands of thousands of people for non-progressive views is evil. But the Nazi system is a much greater evil. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/24 "2015-10-17T23:55:06Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Possibly. Indeed Stalin’s system was as harsh as US Criminal Justice System today – incarceration rate was about the same. Oh my. How many officers and government officials have been executed? How many show trials have we had. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/25 "2015-10-17T23:58:23Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Before Soviet population realized that Hitler had a genocidal policy, many soldiers surrendered simply because they did not want to fight for Communism. But then the population realized that the Nazis were a much greater evil. > > A system which incarcerates hundreds thousands of thousands of people for non-progressive views is evil. But the Nazi system is a much greater evil. The Soviets had very functional defensive fortifications along its pre 1939 borders. When the army occupied its new territory it hadnt time to build new fortifications before the nazis invaded. They also helped push Romania, Hungary and Finland into Hitlers Axis. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/26 "2015-10-18T00:09:14Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Oh my. How many officers and government officials have been executed? How many show trials have we had. :rolleyes: USA 2015 and USSR during Stalin’s time have about the same incarceration rate. But few of the elite are imprisoned in USA 2015. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/27 "2015-10-18T00:10:56Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The Soviets had very functional defensive fortifications along its pre 1939 borders. When the army occupied its new territory it hadnt time to build new fortifications before the nazis invaded. They also helped push Romania, Hungary and Finland into Hitlers Axis. Definitely. But the main reason for Soviet defeats at the beginning was the fact that most people did not want to fight for the progressive Communist ideals until they realized that Nazis were a much greater evil. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/28 "2015-10-18T00:15:36Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > USA 2015 and USSR during Stalin’s time have about the same incarceration rate. But few of the elite are imprisoned in USA 2015. Cite please? And how accurate would a 1930s soviet incarceration cite be when the collecting of such data would be considered treason? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/29 "2015-10-18T00:18:49Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Cite please? And how accurate would a 1930s soviet incarceration cite be when the collecting of such data would be considered treason? [Gulag](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Gulag_Prisoner_Stats_1934-1953.PNG) For a few years, the penal system was as harsh as Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi 2015. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/30 "2015-10-18T00:25:09Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > [Gulag](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Gulag_Prisoner_Stats_1934-1953.PNG) > > For a few years, the penal system was as harsh as Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi 2015. You understand that the gulags were forced labor camps, right? There are no equivelent to a gulag in the USA. There are not hundreds of thousands of political prisoners in the USA. [Gulag - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag) Also there were factors in the ussr that kept the crime rate down [Crime in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_Soviet_Union) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/31 "2015-10-18T01:25:33Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > But it is possible that without the purge, there would have been another revolution in Russia. Stalin was a part of 1917 revolution, and understood revolutionaries very well. I have not considered that; I thought he was just an asshole. I understand that many Russians starved because he could not coordinate resources. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/32 "2015-10-18T01:29:22Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I have not considered that; I thought he was just an asshole. > I understand that many Russians starved because he could not coordinate resources. He also wanted to punish Ukraine > **[unitedhumanrights.org](http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/ukraine_famine.htm)** > > Samaritans Purse Donation,Make a Donation,Online Donation ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/33 "2015-10-18T01:38:31Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Definitely it would have meant defeat and disaster for USSR. I would not exist. But then neither would Mrs. Plant (v.2.0) and I would have lots more money to spend on Mrs. Plant (v.3.0). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/34 "2015-10-18T01:40:45Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I understand that many Russians starved because he could not coordinate resources. That was a horrible tragedy – people starved due to the fact that money was needed for industrialization. Without industrialization, Russia would have lost WWII. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/35 "2015-10-18T01:43:49Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > He also wanted to punish Ukraine > > [unitedhumanrights.org](http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/ukraine_famine.htm) I beg your pardon. Perhaps it was his own Georgia that he starved through incompetency. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/36 "2015-10-18T03:54:26Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > That was a horrible tragedy – people starved due to the fact that money was needed for industrialization. Without industrialization, Russia would have lost WWII. Whoa…are you seriously claiming that the only or even primary reason Russian’s starved was due to WWII or that money was needed for industrialization?? Could you please cite your sources on this incredible assertion or perhaps refine what you are stating, because it’s so outrageous that I must be reading your assertion incorrectly…either that or you have a seriously warped view of Soviet era history. :eek: [QUOTE=Disposable Hero] Neither the US or UK had their territory invaded directly though, and certainly not to the massive extent of the USSR. [/QUOTE] But Germany and Japan were, and they fought every bit as hard to defend their homelands. In addition, the UK fought basically alone after France fell and endured unbelievable levels of bombing and hardship yet fought on…and there is no indication that if they had been invaded the would have just folded and surrendered. The US was basically immune to any sort of invasion that the Axis could have mounted, but, again, no reason to believe that Americans (or Canadians) would have just surrendered either. > [@](#): > > I’m not suggesting paramilitary democracy is weak, just that it wasn’t tested to the same extent and in the same way as the Soviet Union. Sure it was…the Soviet Union didn’t win by itself, and basically it was sink or swim for them. Again, there is no indication that the US or UK would have acted any differently. And Japan and Germany, who also had their backs to the wall, acted basically the same way when existentially threatened. True, they weren’t democracies, but they weren’t communist either. > [@](#): > > Just as an example of the tone of the book, “The supply of ammunition swelled too. Output was almost three times that of 1941, and quality improved greatly. Consumption in the Soviet offensives was matched, even outmatched, by the supply. That the war industries coped with the demand is distinct evidence of the superiority of socalist over capitalist economy. Nazi Germany, for example, had far greater material resources, for in 1943 her supplies surpassed the Soviet Union’s more than three-fold in coal, 2.4 fold in steel and 2.3 fold in electric power. Yet her manufacturing industries produced far less.” (p213) Sounds like a lot of Soviet propaganda and historical revisionism to me. It ignores the fact that the Soviets were able to do all those wonderful things because the US and UK were pouring resources into them. Food, clothing, ammunition, weapons, tanks/trucks/jeeps/planes plus technology. No one was doing that for Germany. > [@](#): > > It is clear that the Soviet Union did outproduce Nazi Germany, I suppose the question is to what extent was that socialism versus capitalism or other factors. Germany wasn’t a ‘capitalist’ nation either. The means of production was mixed, but even the privately owned corporations were tied directly to the Nazi government, who decided who would get resources and survive and who wouldn’t, how that production would be used and directed and distributed, etc etc…much more so than in either the US or UK. The ACTUAL capitalist countries such as the US produced not only enough weapons and materials for them to make a decisive contribution to the war but also much of that used by the Soviet Union, allowing them to focus their production on more limited fronts like tanks and planes (though we gave them plenty of those as well) instead of having to divert resources to build logistics capabilities (and of course all the logistics supplies too). The UK also provided not only resources for Russia but also technology transfers that allowed the Russians a lot of capabilities they wouldn’t and didn’t have otherwise, capabilities that had substantial effects wrt their ability to fight Germany on a more even playing field. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/37 "2015-10-18T05:45:31Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > Bringing a bit of levity into a serious, and very interesting, thread: am reminded of something seen on SDMB in the past few years (would seek it out if I had any idea how to) – was in a thread about crazy and ignorant stuff which people had heard from schoolteachers who had no business to be in that profession. > > Told by a “history” teacher: Tzar Nicholas II and his advisors deliberately set things up for the Bolshevik Revolution to take place (including the liquidation of N II himself and his family, and many of the Russian nobility), out of self-sacrificing patriotism: because they were aware that their feeble regime would not be able to hold against the German onslaught in the World War II which would happen in the future – that would require a truly iron-hard dictatorship with an all-powerful and totally ruthless leader; both, likely, needing to be Communist. > > One might say – here’s one, particularly, for the conspiracy-theories file: involving the ability to foresee the future, more than most CTs seem to do. That’s a new one. It’s a bit hard to imagine the Tzarist leaders thinking that their regime was “feeble.” ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/38 "2015-10-18T09:32:05Z")
Meh, edit ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/39 "2015-10-18T09:33:35Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You understand that the gulags were forced labor camps, right? There are no equivelent to a gulag in the USA. There are not hundreds of thousands of political prisoners in the USA. [Gulag - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag) > > Also there were factors in the ussr that kept the crime rate down [Crime in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_Soviet_Union) > **[Prison Labor BOOMS Despite High Unemployment](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/prison-labor_n_2272036)** > > Prison Labor BOOMS Despite High Unemployment > [@](#): > > One of Walmart’s suppliers, Martori Farms, was the subject of an [exposé by Truthout](http://truth-out.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=1808:martori-farms-abusive-conditions-at-a-key-walmart-supplier) in which one female prisoner described her typical day working for the private company. > Currently, we are forced to work in the blazing sun for eight hours. We run out of water several times a day. We ran out of sunscreen several times a week. They don’t check medical backgrounds or ages before they pull women for these jobs. Many of us cannot do it! If we stop working and sit on the bus or even just take an unauthorized break, we get a major ticket which takes away our ‘good time’. I believe the infamous Sheriff Joe Arpaio runs chains gangs and sweat boxes for meth users. > [@](#): > > **JH:** Yes, Arpaio was a personal disciple of Harry Anslinger. He employed Arpaio in 1957 as a narcotics agent. When I mentioned Harry Anslinger to Arpaio, his face lit up. And it’s easy to think Arpaio is this kind of outlier, this freak, but the American prison system is much closer to Arpaio’s model than it is to any model of reasonable and decent compassion. > I went out with a chain gang of women who were addicts and who were forced to go out wearing t-shirts saying, “I was a drug addict,” and dig graves. One of the most shocking stories I got for the book was when I interviewed Donna Leone Hamm, who’s one of the only people in Arizona who works on prisoners’ rights, and I asked her one of my standard questions: “Tell me about something that shocked you.” She goes down this long list and somewhere down the list she said something like, “There was the time they put that woman in a cage and cooked her — that was quite bad.” And then she just carried on, and I said words to the effect of, “Sorry, Donna, can we go back a second? What was that?” > **MH: Can you explain that to me?** > **JH:** There was a woman called Marcia Powell, about whom almost nothing was known when I started doing the research, except that she kept being arrested either for having meth or prostituting herself to get meth. In 2009, she woke up in Perryville prison. She was suicidal, and the doctor refused to believe she was suicidal. To kind of shut her up, they took her and put her in a holding cage — which is literally an exposed cage in the desert — and they left her there. She cried and she begged for help. She begged for water, and she shat herself. The guards ignored her or mocked her, depending on whose account you believe — and in the end she collapsed. By the time they called an ambulance, she had been cooked to death. No one ever was criminally punished for what happened to Marsha Powell. A few people were fired, but no one ever faced criminal prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836/40 "2015-10-18T09:49:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sounds like a lot of Soviet propaganda and historical revisionism to me. It ignores the fact that the Soviets were able to do all those wonderful things because the US and UK were pouring resources into them. Food, clothing, ammunition, weapons, tanks/trucks/jeeps/planes plus technology. No one was doing that for Germany. > > Germany wasn’t a ‘capitalist’ nation either. The means of production was mixed, but even the privately owned corporations were tied directly to the Nazi government, who decided who would get resources and survive and who wouldn’t, how that production would be used and directed and distributed, etc etc…much more so than in either the US or UK. The ACTUAL capitalist countries such as the US produced not only enough weapons and materials for them to make a decisive contribution to the war but also much of that used by the Soviet Union, allowing them to focus their production on more limited fronts like tanks and planes (though we gave them plenty of those as well) instead of having to divert resources to build logistics capabilities (and of course all the logistics supplies too). The UK also provided not only resources for Russia but also technology transfers that allowed the Russians a lot of capabilities they wouldn’t and didn’t have otherwise, capabilities that had substantial effects wrt their ability to fight Germany on a more even playing field. The US was crucial in rearming Germany and giving it essential technology too. OK, probably for a separate thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-non-communist-russian-empire-and-ww2/734836.md?page=3)