# A Note to American Automakers **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 22, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544 "2009-06-22T01:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/41 "2009-06-24T21:22:45Z")
> [@Discipline](#): > > Highly debateable. > > AWD/4WD systems add significant weight and complexity. Under good conditions, the lighter RWD car will be faster without a doubt. Gordon Murray once said that if he could build a 4WD F1 car it would never lose a race to anything other than mechanical failure. > [@Discipline](#): > > ETA: I swear I’m not trying to stalk or pick on **Really Not All That Bright** , I just don’t have the foresight to multi-quote. Yes you are. 😉 > [@Philster](#): > > The auto/manual transmission hybrids (tiptronics, paddle shifters, etc) are not much different in many cases than the run-of-the-mill automatics that were always built. You are not shifting gears when you tap the shifter up/down, or flip the paddles. You are merely giving the transmission **permission** to choose the gear you selected, and it will _when it damn well pleases._ You tap up from 2 to 3, but the engine/tranny computer might decide to shift three seconds later, now that you gave it permission to do so. Well, that’s a bit different. I’m talking about a true sequential semi-auto with no electronic nannying other than automatic upshifts if you pass the redline. ETA: By the way, Omni, I’ve driven the (2.0 turbo) Genesis and liked it an awful lot. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/42 "2009-06-24T22:03:32Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Did you even read the OP? I want a **2-Door** **Rear Wheel Drive** car. > > I would buy a foreign car, I’m by no means a flag waving F-150 owner. However to get what I want my options are essentially limited to much more expensive German cars and the Infinity G37 and Hyundai Genesis Coupe. The Americans could do it more in my price range. When it comes buying time I’ll probably be getting the Genesis unless my finances improve unexpectedly. I did, but if you insist on American, your dismissal of (and we’ve argued this before, I believe) “muscle cars” in favor of “sports cars” is really limiting your options. Why not a car like a Challenger R/T? Yeah it’s a little big, but modern engines, transmissions, suspensions, braking and the like are really blurring this distinction you’re trying to draw between muscle cars and sports cars. Muscle cars ARE sports cars nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/43 "2009-06-24T23:50:25Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Did you even read the OP? I want a **2-Door** **Rear Wheel Drive** car. > > I would buy a foreign car, I’m by no means a flag waving F-150 owner. However to get what I want my options are essentially limited to much more expensive German cars and the Infinity G37 and Hyundai Genesis Coupe. The Americans could do it more in my price range. When it comes buying time I’ll probably be getting the Genesis unless my finances improve unexpectedly. You and my husband both. He’s just turned 40, we have no kids, and he’s getting tired of driving his fantastically fuel-efficient Tercel with absolutely no guts. He wants a brand new Celica, but barring that (since they don’t make that sweet car anymore), he’s looking at the Ford Mustang or the Hyundai Genesis Coupe. He had been looking at the Hyundai Tiburon, but we can’t figure out why they insist on selling an underpowered sports car. He is not too interested in fuel-efficiency; he wants a hot car that goes like hell. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/44 "2009-06-25T02:23:38Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > All valid points, but I think that in general practice the fetish for manual transmissions is a bit of a joke. Unless you spend considerable time on the track or in remote mountain roads the number of downsides that a manual carries offset the “authentic” driving experience they provide. Manuals are a nightmare in rush hour stop-and-go traffic and a pain in stoplight-to-stop sign routes in urban landscapes. Having to use all 4 appendages to drive in today’s uber-connected world can be a legitimate safety hazzard. We simply can’t ask _more_ from drivers in terms of participation. Ideally drivers will put down the cell phone, turn off the radio and nav system, get their hand out of the McDonald’s bag and actually drive but that’s not really gonna happen. That’s your opinion, but it’s certainly not mine. And your opinion is not right, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/45 "2009-06-25T08:32:02Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I did, but if you insist on American, your dismissal of (and we’ve argued this before, I believe) “muscle cars” in favor of “sports cars” is really limiting your options. > > Why not a car like a Challenger R/T? Yeah it’s a little big, but modern engines, transmissions, suspensions, braking and the like are really blurring this distinction you’re trying to draw between muscle cars and sports cars. > > Muscle cars ARE sports cars nowadays. I can’t fathom what you trying to add to the topic at hand. I haven’t made some treatise on what is and isn’t a sports car. If you like muscle cars, fine and dandy. I like them from an artistic standpoint, they aren’t unattractive, but I’d never want to own one. They’ve cultivated a specific image and that image isn’t me. The interiors are abysmal in finish quality and they are WAY too big for what they are. I’ve outgrown them, I enjoyed my Mustang when I was in High School, it’s time to move on. > [@featherlou](#): > > You and my husband both. He’s just turned 40, we have no kids, and he’s getting tired of driving his fantastically fuel-efficient Tercel with absolutely no guts. He wants a brand new Celica, but barring that (since they don’t make that sweet car anymore), he’s looking at the Ford Mustang or the Hyundai Genesis Coupe. He had been looking at the Hyundai Tiburon, but we can’t figure out why they insist on selling an underpowered sports car. He is not too interested in fuel-efficiency; he wants a hot car that goes like hell. I think he’ll love the Genesis. It’s got some serious balls and is an honest to god RWD sports coupe, unlike the disappointing Tiburon. Supposedly the Celica is [coming back](http://jalopnik.com/5180224/2010-toyota-celica-name-of-new-subieyota-coupe) in 2010 but considering we haven’t even seen an image of it yet I’d be shocked if it hits showrooms any time in the next 18 months. > [@control-z](#): > > That’s your opinion, but it’s certainly not mine. And your opinion is not right, in my opinion. Maybe if you spent some time driving in the gridlocked streets of Chicago and the boring, flat expanses of the Midwestern prairie you might realize the “driving experience” of a manual is lost a tad. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/46 "2009-06-25T14:39:37Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Maybe if you spent some time driving in the gridlocked streets of Chicago and the boring, flat expanses of the Midwestern prairie you might realize the “driving experience” of a manual is lost a tad. I’ll maybe agree with you on gridlock, but driving through the prairie should be no different in a manual than an automatic. 😕 Around here we have not much traffic and many small towns, hills, curvy back roads, etc. Fun driving in a well-handling manual transmission car. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/47 "2009-06-25T21:40:04Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > I’ll maybe agree with you on gridlock, but driving through the prairie should be no different in a manual than an automatic. 😕 Yes, it’s no different. You put it in gear and never touch it again. As such the “fun” of shifting is pretty much nil. Which is all the more reason to question the appeal for folks like me and the ever diminishing number of rural living people. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/48 "2009-06-25T23:30:53Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Yes, it’s no different. You put it in gear and never touch it again. As such the “fun” of shifting is pretty much nil. Which is all the more reason to question the appeal for folks like me and the ever diminishing number of rural living people. I question the appeal of sitting through gridlock routinely. Big waste of time and money, and no wonder you don’t understand the enjoyment of a manual transmission. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/49 "2009-06-26T06:23:21Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > I question the appeal of sitting through gridlock routinely. Big waste of time and money, and no wonder you don’t understand the enjoyment of a manual transmission. Gridlock sucks, without qualification. It’s a price I’m willing to pay for being able to walk where I want to go 75% of the time and always having something to do and someone to meet at any hour of the day. Of course that’s neither here nor there. Don’t get me wrong, I completely understand the appeal of a manual. I like driving a stick when I’m in the right situation. All I’m arguing is that the majority of people who rabidly support manuals don’t find themselves in those right situations very often. Too much of the appeal is conjured by car magazines and websites staffed with people who regularly get to take supercars on tracks and sport drive for a living. They seldom admit that 90% of the US population will never see and track or live in easy reach of fun, curvy, mountainous roads because that wouldn’t sell subscriptions. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544/50 "2009-06-26T17:32:01Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > \ > I think he’ll love the Genesis. It’s got some serious balls and is an honest to god RWD sports coupe, unlike the disappointing Tiburon. Supposedly the Celica is [coming back](http://jalopnik.com/5180224/2010-toyota-celica-name-of-new-subieyota-coupe) in 2010 but considering we haven’t even seen an image of it yet I’d be shocked if it hits showrooms any time in the next 18 months. We’ve looked at the Genesis Coupe (couldn’t test drive it because the Hyundai dealership in town is seriously trying to stop people from buying their cars), but someday we’ll give it a go. We’re not thinking of getting the car for years, yet, so we’re hoping something like a revamped Celica actually does show up. Maybe car manufacturers can take some of their resources from producing SUVs and mini-vans and put a little into a good sportscar. > [@](#): > > Maybe if you spent some time driving in the gridlocked streets of Chicago and the boring, flat expanses of the Midwestern prairie you might realize the “driving experience” of a manual is lost a tad. I get a tired leg from driving stick in traffic some days, but I still don’t want an automatic. Personal preference, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-note-to-american-automakers/500544.md?page=2)