Your “solution” is highly offensive. You specifically said:
This was not an automobile accident, or a natural diaster. This was a crime. Someone planned this. Being an eyewitness to abuse, you, of all people should know that the abusers have to be dealt with, not ignored. I don’t believe you ever addressed the question: Will terrorism cease if we “turn the other cheek”? The answer, whether you choose to publicly admit it or not, is “No”.
The United States was a victim of assault Tuesday morning. It’s citizens, as well as the citizens of many other countries were killed. Because the United States may have been involved in questionable behavior in the past, it cannot be considered a victim? Then apparently you believe a prostitute could never be a victim of rape, considering her questionable past.
Please re-read my statment. Our freedoms, including the freedom of speech you use to continue to bash our country, are being protected by those fighting and dying. Also note that we are not typing in German or Imperial Japanese.
You may cry out against jingoistic thinking all you want, but it is literally them or us.
For one of the first times in our history we are now confronted with a sworn enemy who is willing to use the most horrific means imaginable to destroy Western civilization. Our continued existance is an affront to their sensibilities and we are to be killed at their convenience. Do not delude yourselves about the intentions of these maniacs. They want us all dead, they do not care how. If they were in possession of a nuclear device I am sure that they would have already used it. When they get one they will. We must prevent that by any means possible.
We are not dealing with the Nazis or the Communists. We are dealing with a bunch of madmen who have the avowed purpose of destroying civilization. Their quest is for a repressive theocratic regime the likes of which has never been seen before. Not one of us is safe until these maggots are exterminated like the vermin that they are. Nothing short of premature death will dissuade these cretins from their sworn crusade. And it is death they must be given, not soon, but immediately. They have demonstrated their willingness to have innocent people slaughtered like sheep.
What makes you think that they will not do their level best to ensure that the Afghani people are not also slaughtered like sheep in our quest to eliminate the Taleban? I can most certainly reassure you that they will. These excrement know no limits in their savage campaign of murdering anyone that it serves their purpose to. Nothing that we could possibly do will ever match the level of depravity that these thugs have already attained. Somehow, we must find them and kill all of them. I do not know of a simple way to do this. Assasinations are too time consuming and put at risk vital assets that we need for our defense.
It is for this reason that I have continually challenged everyone in this thread to deliver a better solution to this problem. There is no method short of obliteration that will deliver the results we need to guarantee the continuing existence of civilization. This is not an intellectual thought problem to be toyed with after dinner holding a wine glass in your hand. This is war and the first genuine threat to the modern world since the Nazis.
We are confronted with our own extinction unless we act swiftly and decisively. The murder of millions more await those who would pause to negotiate with these bastards. Collateral casualties mean absolutely nothing compared to the need to exterminate these psychopaths and exterminate them now. As I said, come up with some quick solutions or consider yourself disqualified in this matter. There is no time to waste dithering around. Each and every one of our lives are hanging in the balance.
Until this day, I never thought that I could possibly feel this way. But a line was crossed last Tuesday the steps of which can never be retraced. The genie is out of the bottle. We must command the situation and do it with all the authority of this world’s greatest military power. Only a fool would be satisfied to have a single one of the Taleban left alive when we are finished. We must act now to eliminate this murderous element from society. We have encountered the human equivalent of the Ebola strain in mankind, this is the flesh eating virus of civilization. We must sterilize the earth of these bloodthirsty blackguards without delay.
**
Yeah! How dare you paint what happened Tuesday as an “us vs. them” situation?
And Zenster? Here’s an idea … Instead of frantically cross-posting and worrying about your “thread ownership,” why not debate the issue in one thread? Many of us are participating here because this more or less became the Great Debate thread on the subject. Yours was started in MPSIMS.
You were appealing to me and Scylla, among others, to go over there and say the same things. Uh, why?
BTW, Zens … I certainly come closer to agreeing with you than I do the Olentzeros, jabes and Stoids of the world.
Anyone wanting a fuller understanding of just what a conundrum we’ve been forced into now should read this and this.
What will be needed appears to be a comprehensive program involving an international law enforcement dragnet and diligent, targeted intelligence-gathering; and annihilating military force.
What about using Fuel Air bombs? All the bang with none of the radiation. Plus you would be lessening civilian bombing by a great deal. Instead of 100 cruise missles sailing into the city, you just drop a few of those bad boys mentioned above on suspected targets.
I have advocated employing fuel-air bombs from the very beginning of all of this. Large scale weapons are the only ones of use. Pinpoint bombing is not going to work.
After a few days now, it’s becoming more clear just what type of ‘war’ we’re talking about. First, there will be military action in Afghanistan, almost certainly leading to the fall of the Taliban. This could be a very large, very long battle. Afghanistan is an extremely tough nut to crack.
After that, it gets a lot muddier. I suspect direct U.S. military attack will scale down then, and the war will become political and economic, with a coalition of countries enforcing serious economic sanctions on countries that refuse to play ball. In the meantime, intelligence gathered from other countries like Pakistan will be used to surgically attack terrorist cells all over the world, including in democratic countries and even in the U.S. Remember the SAS hitting the American Embassy in Britain, killing all the terrorists inside? Or the raid on Entebbe? Expect to see dozens of such actions in the next while.
In the meantime, the U.S. is going to inject serious funds into the intelligence community, and there will be a crash program of improving human and electronic intelligence. I also expect new multi-nationanl count-terrorism squads. A U.N. counter-terror program consisting of the best of the SAS, Mossad, KGB, CIA, etc might be formed, with wide ranging powers to use violence to disrupt terrorist cells throughout the world.
Added to that will be a lack of tolerance for other nations that harbor terrorists. Instead of endless gavel pounding at the U.N., expect to see a lot of unannounced military strikes against countries that won’t play ball, such as Yemen, the Sudan, Iraq, Iran, etc.
What do the rest of you think? Is this about how it looks to be shaping up?
Seems to me courts also take a dim view of a crime victim exacting vengeance on the presumed perpetrator under his own initiative, too. There are courts for criminals such as bin Laden; let him stand trial there. There is no excuse or justification for punishing the whole of Afghanistan.
And I would have gained much more satisfaction in the long run from seeing the perpetrator brought to justics in a court of law than acting on my irrational teenaged fantasies of smashing his feet and kneecaps with a sledgehammer.
There is much more the United States needs to do to stop terrorism than “turn the other cheek”. And blindly lashing out at the Middle East is not part of it.
Again with the presumed anti-woman stance. Your presumption is totally false. Do you care to argue with me around my viewpoints or do you prefer to try to discredit me completely with groundless attacks?
And therefore what? You really think the United States’ vaunted freedoms are threatened by actually exercising them?
If you don’t know WHY they feel that way, then we lose. We have to understand their motivations. Good lord, KNOW YOUR ENEMY. Study them. Learn their motivations, their fears, their goals. Get inside them and disect them.
If you recall from earlier on the thread, most posters, including me, are not recommending indiscriminate killing of anyone in the Middle East. What you don’t seem to understand is that no one (except maybe Zenster) is out to wipe out Afghanistan. We are out to stop those responsible and those that support them. All Afghanis do not support OBL or the Taliban.
That’s nice. But there’s nothing irrational about stopping a mass murderer.
Thanks for stating the obvious- blindly lashing out is not 'turning the other cheek". I asked: "… what’s the solution to the problem at hand? WWOD? (What Would Olentzero DO?) ". To which you responded: “No retaliation of any kind. Let’s clean up the mess, grieve, heal ourselves and move on”.
Not groundless. “No retaliation of any kind. Let’s clean up the mess, grieve, heal ourselves and move on”. Read: Accept it. You say you wouldn’t recommended that to a victim of assault yet that’s what you want the U.S. to do; when the U.S. is mentioned, you claim it’s a direct effect of activities it had engaged in in the past - a la “he/she was asking for it” - therefore the claim that a prostitute could not be a victim of rape. (Note: I added the “he” - my goal is not to label you a misogynist).
Therefore, your freedoms, your home, your transportation, your internet connection are all a by-product of U.S. policies, whether you agree with them or not. I challenge you to put your idealism where your mouth is: cut up your credit cards, grow your own food, stop driving -or better yet, stop using anything that would have been transported by fuel sold by “U.S. oil companies” that are exploiting the Middle East for profit, stop paying your taxes, etc., etc. To do less would make you a hypocrite…
Again, I couldn’t agree with you more.
Olent, your posts are incredible. I’m getting a little weary of all the rebuttals I need to make to some of the “kill 'em all” vermin that permeate this board.
So I think I’m going to stand on the sidelines for a little while.
But I want you to know I am with you all the way. Keep up the incredible work!
Oceans, once again, please forgive me for interjecting in your post to Olent.
But it doesn’t seem to me that he’s suggesting that the US stand idly by and “just take it.”
I think what he’s saying is that war or military action will probably have the same result it has had in the past. Not much.
You have asked what the proposed solution would be. I honestly don’t think that this problem is as simple as 1-2-3. Yes, without a doubt, action is required. A LOT of action is required. And it’s not just required from the US, but the entire international community. I don’t think Olent is suggesting that the entire world just roll over and play dead.
But for starters, let’s not resort to the same things that have been tried in the past and which obviously have not yielded the intended results.
Guin continues to suggest a much more scientific approach. LEARN your enemy’s motivations.
I have also suggested a few possible solutions in an earlier post.
Olent has suggested an International court to deal with this particular criminal.
Any other solution will probably have to be discovered as we actually start to address the problem and its root sources.
Oceans, we’re facing a HUGE problem. Big hammers to kill ants is more than likely not the answer.
Please withdraw that statement. It is utterly untrue and in no way represents my thinking on the topic. While it may be easy for you to read such a horrendous notion into my statements, I have never proposed any one-time solution that involves the outright complete and total destruction of the nation of Afghanistan.
In fact, I am heartily in favor of rebuilding it once the Taleban government is deposed.
Y’know, I’m getting weary of the same old people pulling the same old disngenuous fallacies time and time again. It’s like turning on HBO and seeing the only thing on is Remo WIlliams for the 32nd time this week. Enough with the one trick pony agendas already.