# A part of American Democracy successfully exported to Iraq! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480 "2005-01-24T22:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/241 "2005-02-01T00:19:48Z")
> [@](#): > > “Fuck, the police just shot 50 people at gunpoint, they’re a bunch of assholes” But you’re assuming the impossible, the fact that 30-40 years of indoctrination of torturing prisoners, arresting people with lack of evidence, are all going to be easy to get rid of, in the middle of an insurgency, in the middle of hundreds of police officers getting killed. > [@](#): > > We couldn’t control SH, we can or are supposed to be insuring this shit doesn’t happen. At least from a PR standpoint, but I would hope from a humanitarian one first. Of course, but Iraq right now is too violent for any proper monitoring to take place all the time, unless you want to get yourself killed. > [@](#): > > Then don’t fill a fucking police force up with old torturing assholes. Pick some new people. Which they did? Where do you think the US would find a new officer class from, experienced and trained in maintaining order better than any other Iraqi out there at the moment? > [@](#): > > Yes I do expect it to change overnight, and so do a lot of other people. What we’re allowed to torture for the first 90 days, and then we slowly give it up “after getting it out of our system”? Well it won’t, I do think we’ll stop it eventually, no laws though have been passed on this, its purely an ethical outlook. > [@](#): > > That’s the dumbest fucking thing I’ve heard yet. Old habits die hard, you’re dumb enough not to even realise that. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/242 "2005-02-01T00:51:25Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But you’re assuming the impossible, the fact that 30-40 years of indoctrination of torturing prisoners, arresting people with lack of evidence, are all going to be easy to get rid of, in the middle of an insurgency, in the middle of hundreds of police officers getting killed. I’m not assuming the impossible, you’re not listening to me. Any police from SH’s regime, should not be a police officer in present day Iraqi. That way all these assholes that used to torture people, don’t start doing it again Think of Iraq as a company. We’ve kicked out the old management, and replaced them with new management. In the case of Iraq, the new management is inexplicably the old management. > [@](#): > > Of course, but Iraq right now is too violent for any proper monitoring to take place all the time, unless you want to get yourself killed. Well what hte fuck are the 150,000 fucking troops there for? To enjoy the weather? They’re supposedly there to protect the Iraqis, which needs to be done on several levels. Shit man it’s really not that hard to run a police station where you don’t shove foreign objects up the prisoner’s asses. We should be monitoring these stations. > [@](#): > > Which they did? Where do you think the US would find a new officer class from, experienced and trained in maintaining order better than any other Iraqi out there at the moment? The old murdering regime has experience in controlling people, so let’s hire them? WTF??? How about training some people that weren’t in the old regime, which you’ll remeber we removed a few months prior. IF YOU GIVE THESE PEOPLE THEIR OLD JOBS BACK, THEY’LL PICK UP WHERE THEY LEFT OFF, TORTURING PEOPLE. > [@](#): > > Well it won’t, I do think we’ll stop it eventually, no laws though have been passed on this, its purely an ethical outlook. Passing a law won’t stop torture you moron. Removing the assholes who torture people will. Making sure that if someone was a police officer in the old regime, you don’t fucking hire them, you hire _someone else_. > [@](#): > > Old habits die hard, you’re dumb enough not to even realise that. How about hiring some people whos old habits weren’t abusing prisoners? I can’t even believe we’re discussing something this inane. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/243 "2005-02-01T00:54:42Z")
Oh come now **World Eater** , you honestly think that just because we’re there for Freedomtm and Democracy tm and one of the current rationalizations is that Sadaam was a bad man, that we can’t do the exact same things that he did? Surely you’re aware that when Sadaam tortured people it was bad, but when we do it, Freedom Is On The March! Honestly, Sadaam having his police rape people was bad, but when American soldiers do it we’re aiming for the Anus of Justice!!! I mean, seriously, haven’t you heard the talking points? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/244 "2005-02-01T05:05:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I mean, seriously, haven’t you heard the talking points? Yeah, they continously make my head a splode. When I’m at work and I fuck a task up, the next time I do it, it’s first and foremost in my mind to not make the same mistake again. I may screw up in a different manner, but I try and learn from my mistakes. If I was running this campaign, it would be front and center that we bend over backwards to instill the notion that we’re not the old regime. I would be monitoring prison detention and treatment like a hawk. Each time one of these knuckleheads pulls some stunt, we take a tremendious PR hit, yet it seems like we don’t do much to prevent similar incidents in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/245 "2005-02-01T23:47:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Oh come now **World Eater** , you honestly think that just because we’re there for Freedomtm and Democracy tm and one of the current rationalizations is that Sadaam was a bad man, that we can’t do the exact same things that he did? > Surely you’re aware that when Sadaam tortured people it was bad, but when we do it, Freedom Is On The March! Honestly, Sadaam having his police rape people was bad, but when American soldiers do it we’re aiming for the Anus of Justice!!! > > I mean, seriously, haven’t you heard the talking points? This is hillarious FinnAgain, I ask you a question, and yet you still seem to avoid it. What will it take for you to answer it. Ok here it is again Finn. If you’re unhappy about the way the US Coalition is conducting this war and bringing about democracy and representation for the Iraqi people, what do you suggest? > [@](#): > > **World Eater** > > The old murdering regime has experience in controlling people, so let’s hire them? WTF??? But we did that? We sacked the entire police force, then found out what a fuckup that was, we rehire them, and now you’re bitching on at us about torture? > [@](#): > > Passing a law won’t stop torture you moron. Removing the assholes who torture people will. Making sure that if someone was a police officer in the old regime, you don’t fucking hire them, you hire someone else And what if the majority of the police are like this, then what? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/246 "2005-02-02T00:05:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But we did that? We sacked the entire police force, then found out what a fuckup that was, we rehire them, and now you’re bitching on at us about torture? What I’m not allowed to bitch about torturing anymore because of this? Let me get this straight. We roll in, and get rid of the crooked police force, and those within it that had links to SH. We then experience problems controiling the country, so we rehire all the old torturing assholes to help regain control? Don’t you see this is a pretty stupid thing to do? > [@](#): > > And what if the majority of the police are like this, then what? Well if the majority of the police are torturing assholes that’s a pretty bad problem wouldn’t you say? So our choices are this. Rehire a bunch of goons who have a _history_ of mistreating people, or risk increased chaos due to lack of personel. Pretty shitty choice eh? I’m serious here, you think rehiring these people is a good idea? What type of message does it send to the Iraqis? “We got rid of SH and all his corrupt security forces that used to beat you, but we just hired them back again, rejoice!” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/247 "2005-02-02T00:17:27Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > What type of message does it send to the Iraqis? “We got rid of SH and all his corrupt security forces that used to beat you, but we just hired them back again, rejoice!” Pragmatism? Proper management? Intelligence? Cultural sensitivity? Diplomacy? A Humanitarian mission? Enough troops to protect the Iraqis? Dedication to the moral highground and to be better than SH? You’re kidding, right? You’ve heard the Glorious Leader. The Iraqis should be damn glad for whatever we do, and we’ve made no mistakes, ever. Besides, the American election was an ‘accountability moment’. Surely the Iraqis aren’t bothered by anything since 51% of Americans who voted weren’t bothered. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/248 "2005-02-02T00:59:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Pragmatism? Proper management? Intelligence? Cultural sensitivity? Diplomacy? A Humanitarian mission? Enough troops to protect the Iraqis? Dedication to the moral highground and to be better than SH? > You’re kidding, right? > > You’ve heard the Glorious Leader. The Iraqis should be damn glad for whatever we do, and we’ve made no mistakes, ever. Besides, the American election was an ‘accountability moment’. Surely the Iraqis aren’t bothered by anything since 51% of Americans who voted weren’t bothered. I’m still waiting FinnAgain; If you’re unhappy about the way the US Coalition is conducting this war and bringing about democracy and representation for the Iraqi people, what do you suggest? > [@](#): > > **World Eater** > > We roll in, and get rid of the crooked police force, and those within it that had links to SH. We then experience problems controiling the country, so we rehire all the old torturing assholes to help regain control? Even if thats so, I doubt the majority of the Iraqi police force is as bad as Saddams. > [@](#): > > Well if the majority of the police are torturing assholes that’s a pretty bad problem wouldn’t you say? So our choices are this. Rehire a bunch of goons who have a history of mistreating people, or risk increased chaos due to lack of personel. Pretty shitty choice eh? Yes, which would you choose? > [@](#): > > I’m serious here, you think rehiring these people is a good idea? What type of message does it send to the Iraqis? “We got rid of SH and all his corrupt security forces that used to beat you, but we just hired them back again, rejoice!” Saddam Hussein relied heavily on elements of the Ba’ath Party and minority Sunni Arab tribal alliances to maintain a police state. Consdering considering the amount of Police we’ve hired are more Shia and Kurdish mix, and how Human right abuses were carried out mainly by their Sunni counterparts, I’d claim what you’re saying to be of a mixed variety. Iraqi police are very brave, regardless, to sign up, train and effectively been facing a large insurgency, they’re heroes. > [@](#): > > The Iraqis should be damn glad for whatever we do, and we’ve made no mistakes, ever. Besides, the American election was an ‘accountability moment’. Surely the Iraqis aren’t bothered by anything since 51% of Americans who voted weren’t bothered. Where have I denied we’ve made mistakes? Bush was wrong to invade Iraq, but whats coming out of it is a good thing, first and foremost for the Iraqi people, who now get to have the chance of a real democracy. Why is this all singled on President Bush, isn’t there more than one man in your tiny world? Are you going to disregard the millions of Iraqis who voted purely because you hate this administration and everything that comes with it? If you do, you’re not anti war, you’re a sadist. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/249 "2005-02-02T02:52:48Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m still waiting FinnAgain; > > If you’re unhappy about the way the US Coalition is conducting this war and bringing about democracy and representation for the Iraqi people, what do you suggest? Well it’s tough, because most of the steps are aimed at cleaning up the mess we made for ourselves. For example, _not_ blowing up Zarqawi to kingdom come, dividing the international world in half with our stubbornness, and sending probably half the troops we needed. For starters I suggest nailing anyone who tortures prisoners to the wall, in a highly public manner. Public in Iraq btw, not over here, where it won’t do as much good. Next Bush has to be more high profile about acknowledging these mistakes, even addressing the Iraqi people personally. If bush admitted some humility it would go a long way in helping bring more people on board. I’ll address more steps when I have more time. > [@](#): > > Even if thats so, I doubt the majority of the Iraqi police force is as bad as Saddams. We had a chance for a clean slate here, and the best we can do is create a police force that isn’t as bad as SH’s? That’s pretty weak. > [@](#): > > Yes, which would you choose? I’d choose chaos over bringing in old elements of SH’s regime, on many levels it’s less of a PR hit in terms of Iraqs hating us. The problem is we have two really shitty decisions to make, both with bad outcomes. I don’t have time now, so I’ll finish this post later. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/250 "2005-02-02T22:30:01Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Why is this all singled on President Bush, isn’t there more than one man in your tiny world? Bush was the one that signed off on the invasion, he’s the one that gets my ire. Are you suggesting I should blame someone else? > [@](#): > > Are you going to disregard the millions of Iraqis who voted purely because you hate this administration and everything that comes with it? If you do, you’re not anti war, you’re a sadist. Not at all. I’m pissed at the administration and their boneheaded decisions, not the Iraqis, get it? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/251 "2005-02-02T22:36:47Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Are you suggesting I should blame someone else? Blame [ol] [li]Canada[/li][li]Liberals who oppose the war and thus ‘sap our morale’ [/li][li]Insurgents whose culture we don’t understand and who see American troops doing horrible things. [/li][li]Terrorists who’ve flooded into Iraq and attacked our already mismanged and insufficent troops.[/li][li]The Iraqis themselves, if they just wanted security and democracy enough…[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/252 "2005-02-03T20:27:00Z")
Nota bene, just this: in response to **FinnAgain’s** query, “Why just Iraq? Why not Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or North Korea?” **Ryan\_Liam** [writes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5775978&postcount=122): > [@](#): > > \*Well, North Korea does have 10 thousand artillery pieces in range of Seoul, the worlds 9th largest economy one of the worlds biggest armies, one of the biggest spenders of GDP (35%) on its military, is nuclear, is biological. And is next to a state which in the last Korean war, came across the border with over 1 million troops. Plus the fact that renovating North Korea would be 10 times more than the cost of the Iraq campaign. > > **Iraq was different, because it was weak and easy to finish off.** If we could of done the same to North Korea we would of, but the costs far outweigh the benefits. plus the worlds most populous country being pissed at you isn’t what I call a good idea.\* Let’s repeat that money quote, just for emphasis: > [@](#): > > \*\*\* Iraq was different, because it was weak and easy to finish off.\*\*\* I’m confused. Prior to the invasion, the Bush administration told me that Iraq was a terrible, looming threat. It was the most threatening state in the Middle East. President Bush himself said that Saddam was “a threat to the **world** ,” that he continued to possess some of the “most lethal weapons ever devised by mankind.” Those who supported the war argued that we needed to invade Iraq, right now, because Hussein’s regime was so dangerous. Now you tell me that we chose to invade Iraq because it was “weak,” and “easy to finish off?” One of these claims is not like the other. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/253 "2005-02-06T01:21:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Prior to the invasion, the Bush administration told me that Iraq was a terrible, looming threat. It was the most threatening state in the Middle East. President Bush himself said that Saddam was “a threat to the world,” that he continued to possess some of the “most lethal weapons ever devised by mankind.” Those who supported the war argued that we needed to invade Iraq, right now, because Hussein’s regime was so dangerous. This is where you come off as a dumbass, I said repeatedly within the thread my opinion on the reasons to go to war were wrong and by the Bush administration, but whatever happens now, we must support the Iraqi people build up the state to a point where they can defend it without our help. > [@](#): > > One of these claims is not like the other. Trying to come off as the intellectual superior isn’t good when what you say is dubious at best isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Bush was the one that signed off on the invasion, he’s the one that gets my ire. Are you suggesting I should blame someone else? What I don’t understand is, that people keep telling me that the US has wanted to invade Iraq for more than a decade at least, blame those people who were whispering into the presidents ear. > [@](#): > > Terrorists who’ve flooded into Iraq and attacked our already mismanged and insufficent troops. Got it in one FinnAgain, but withdrawing will be such a bonus, maybe even a benefit to those innocent Iraqis, who would now be left alone with a bunch of murderous terrorists to confront, wouldn’t it? > [@](#): > > Insurgents whose culture we don’t understand and who see American troops doing horrible things. My heart bleeds, it really does, for those insurgents. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/254 "2005-02-06T09:20:36Z")
> [@](#): > > My heart bleeds, it really does, for those insurgents. It should. How would you feel if you’re country had been invaded by a foreign ideologically-hostile power? People you know, maybe even family members have been killed. If you were in the army, you got made summarily unemployed. You could join the new army, but that would mean embracing the people who invaded your homeland, and it’s hardly the safest job in the world. They say they invaded for your own good (although that’s less what they were saying at the time) and that things will get better, but other than being able to vote for someone who was too scared to tell you their name, you’re not really seeing much concrete evidence. What would you do Ryan? Would you fight to defend your country? Have you forgotten what an insurgent is again? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/255 "2005-02-06T21:14:51Z")
> [@](#): > > It should. How would you feel if you’re country had been invaded by a foreign ideologically-hostile power? Quite happy if the ideology of the native regime was much more terrible. > [@](#): > > People you know, maybe even family members have been killed. If you were in the army, you got made summarily unemployed. The army melted away at Baghdad, you find out in the army you’re in, you have to fight against people who kill you. Thats war, and when an army isn’t needed anymore, it gets disbanded. If they cared about that, then they’d target purely US/Iraqi Defence Force etc. installations and personel and not civilians as they’ve done most of the time. At least in this army you have a choice whether you join or not. > [@](#): > > You could join the new army, but that would mean embracing the people who invaded your homeland, and it’s hardly the safest job in the world. Its an army, army means war? Fighting defending the people from enemies? Figure it out. The army is _never_ the safest job in the world. > [@](#): > > They say they invaded for your own good (although that’s less what they were saying at the time) and that things will get better, but other than being able to vote for someone who was too scared to tell you their name, you’re not really seeing much concrete evidence. Rape rooms no longer existing in a regime based on fear? the entire country liberated from organised terror? At least in post Saddam Iraq this terror is not legitimate where as it’s considered to be legitimate, and in many cases is actually legal in the nation concerned, where tyrannies reign. > [@](#): > > What would you do Ryan? Would you fight to defend your country? If I lived in a country where one ethnic group ruled and oppressed all others, where people were routinely executed, persecuted, gassed, raped, wiped out, economically devastated and under the thumb of a dictator who used their money to build more symbols of his wealth and power, I’d welcome any outsider who promised freedom and liberty with open arms. In short terms, NO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=12)