# A part of American Democracy successfully exported to Iraq! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480 "2005-01-24T22:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/21 "2005-01-25T04:08:13Z")
Count yer blessings. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/22 "2005-01-25T04:49:27Z")
One ignoring Two ignorings Three ignorings Four Five ignorings Six ignorings Seven ignorings more ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/23 "2005-01-25T05:55:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah, Zarqawi and the noble freedom-loving insurgents are two seperate entities, may never the two meet!? Consider my ignorance fought! And here I was, laboring under the delusion that Zarqawi was a figure of some importance with the insurgents (who just want to be rid of their dread American oppressors!). Pffft. Well, laboring under delusions is pretty much what I would have said, given your history around here. Dang, man, it shouldn’t be so hard to name a name; one freaking poster, here, who supports Zarqawi. Come on, out with it. You know you want to. And again, since forgot to mention it, “told us so” about what? I’m all ears, or eyes or something. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/24 "2005-01-25T07:11:48Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > …Dang, man, it shouldn’t be so hard to name a name; one freaking poster, here, **who supports Zarqawi**. Come on, out with it. You know you want to. Odd that you keep insisting on seperating Zarqawi from the rest of your noble insurgents, as if he is just sitting alone over there. It is a seperation that exists only in the ‘minds’ of various and sundry lefties. Zarqawi is speaking at the helm of his gang of terrorists (you know, the ‘Minutemen!’ of Michael Moore fame) and head-saweroffers. And you are interested in ‘who supports Zarqawi’? Well, everyone that tries to lift his filthy terrorists to the level of some sort of freedom loving patriots is lending a measure of support to Zarqawi. You know, the various idiots that try to use the bad analogy ‘Golly, imagine if you woke up one morning and found Iraqi tanks rolling down the street. Wouldn’t you fight!?’ :rolleyes: Ya. Sure. Sawing off heads is an act of liberation. Suicide bomber + Wedding = The freedom! Besides, what are they defending their homes against? The upcoming elections? Please. I am rather amazed that there are still those who want to term the various terrorists over yon as any sort of legitimate restistance. And don’t tell me you need cites for Dopers claiming the insurgents are merely ‘defending their homes’. > [@](#): > > And again, since forgot to mention it, “told us so” about what? I’m all ears, or eyes or something. Like I said [before:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5737826&postcount=31) > [@](#): > > The idea that somehow the insurgents in Iraq are ‘legitimate’, and are simply seeking freedom from ‘oppression’ or ‘occupation’ or whatnot. [Is a] Crock. Of. Shit. It doesn’t take many functioning braincells to see the insurgents for what they are, which is why I am the more perturbed by some peoples refusal to do so. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/25 "2005-01-25T07:24:15Z")
Based on what? From whence to you get the unvarnished facts? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/26 "2005-01-25T07:28:40Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You know, the various idiots that try to use the bad analogy ‘Golly, imagine if you woke up one morning and found Iraqi tanks rolling down the street. Wouldn’t you fight!?’ Why is that analogy stupid or wrong? Wouldn’t you? No, you probably wouldn’t go and cut off heads, but seriously… If America were invaded, and some of those who fought back did so using terrorist tactics, would that mean that you didn’t have the right to fight against an invasion? > [@Brutus](#): > > It doesn’t take many functioning braincells to see the insurgents for what they are, which is why I am the more perturbed by some peoples refusal to do so. Extraordinary claims, evidence, 'n all that. Unless you can prove that there exists a centralized command and control network I think your claims about the insurgency are dead wrong. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/27 "2005-01-25T07:55:45Z")
Hell, don’t have to do all that to impress me, just one little fact, one unvarnished truth that he has that the rest of us don’t. He knows who the insurgents are, he knows what they think. Perfectly at ease flaunting his contempt for other opinions, ok, flop it out on the table and lets see how big it really is, loudmouth! Show us what you got! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/28 "2005-01-25T13:58:15Z")
> [@](#): > > And you are interested in ‘who supports Zarqawi’? Well, everyone that tries to lift his filthy terrorists to the level of some sort of freedom loving patriots is lending a measure of support to Zarqawi. **Brutus** , once again, name a name of a specific poster on this board who, in your view supports terrorism by Zarqawi’s organization (or any other) in Iraq, or kindly shut the fuck up. As an aside, you really ought to try spending as much time formulating a coherent argument as you do crafting your insults sometime; you might then actually find that you were posting something useful. > [@](#): > > You know, the various idiots that try to use the bad analogy ‘Golly, imagine if you woke up one morning and found Iraqi tanks rolling down the street. Wouldn’t you fight!?’ Ya. Sure. Sawing off heads is an act of liberation. Suicide bomber + Wedding = The freedom! Besides, what are they defending their homes against? The upcoming elections? Please. I am rather amazed that there are still those who want to term the various terrorists over yon as any sort of legitimate restistance. See, this is where the coherence problem kicks in. One, I have no clue what you are trying to put across here. Two, this whole freaking thread is about ridiculing Zarqawi and his ilk, yet for some bizarre reason you seem to want turn it into some sort of diatribe against what you deem to be leftists on this board. Rail against the ‘idiots’ around you all you want, but at this point you are sounding a lot like a demented homeless guy raving in the subway. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/29 "2005-01-25T14:20:21Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > Al-Zarquwi declares war on Democracy Whew! I’m glad I live in a _republic_. We really dodged a bullet on that one! Of course, classical Athens is going to be really fucked when an ambulance full of C-4 comes to town—on the plus side, it will be easy to spot. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/30 "2005-01-25T15:23:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, **Brutus** , I got about thirty seconds, tell me everything you know about the Iraqi insurgency. What are you going to do with the remaining 29 seconds? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/31 "2005-01-25T15:35:06Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > Whew! I’m glad I live in a _republic_. We really dodged a bullet on that one! Of course, classical Athens is going to be really fucked when an ambulance full of C-4 comes to town—on the plus side, it will be easy to spot. Shit. Those irascible Muslims already blew up the Parthenon once. Can’t they just let it be? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/32 "2005-01-25T15:37:45Z")
Clearly, there are two options: gape in stunned silence at the depth of friend **Brutus** encyclopedic grasp of the subject or, giggling fits. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/33 "2005-01-25T15:43:15Z")
Just don’t try to giggle whle gaping, it tends to induce vomiting. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/34 "2005-01-25T16:01:40Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Brutus > > When did al-Zarqawi become every insurgent in Iraq? > > Told who so? Oh man, please don’t say to me ‘He’s bad, but the other militants, they’re the real heroes!!’ ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/35 "2005-01-25T16:08:02Z")
Well the other side aren’t exactly making their mothers proud either > [@](#): > > Iraqi security forces systematically abuse prisoners, a leading US-based human rights group reports. > > Unlawful arrests, torture and the long-term isolation of detainees are “routine”, Human Rights Watch says. > > … > Between July and October 2004, HRW’s investigations revealed systematic use of arbitrary arrest, torture of detainees, improper treatment of child prisoners and denial of access to lawyers. Why was SH removed again. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/4204913.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4204913.stm) I can understand why some people would take up arms against this kind of treatment and not have a major political motive for doing so. As to al-Zarqawi well who’s surprised that a religious nut like him has a problem with Democracy. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/36 "2005-01-25T16:09:49Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > Whew! I’m glad I live in a _republic_. We really dodged a bullet on that one! Of course, classical Athens is going to be really fucked when an ambulance full of C-4 comes to town—on the plus side, it will be easy to spot. Hey, Xerxes II did a good enough job of that! ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/37 "2005-01-25T16:22:55Z")
**Brutus** , I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the world isn’t black or white. Sometimes you need to view things in context, and that requires a little nuance. Now if Iraqi tanks came rumbling through the streets, you pick up a gun and join the fight. In fact I think all of us would do so. Now while we’re out fighting for our lives, some assholes on the other side of the state start using these crazy terrorist guerilla tactics. Now you’re against their methods, you find them horrific, but you have a dilemma. The invaders have to be fought back at all costs, and while you abhor those tactics, you’re outgunned and out manned. Secondly, and more importantly you would love to be able to distance yourself from those loony’s, but you tolerate (shut the fuck up) them because if you speak up they’ll be chopping _your head_ off next. Why can’t we assume something similar is taking place in Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/38 "2005-01-25T16:30:08Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Oh man, please don’t say to me ‘He’s bad, but the other militants, they’re the real heroes!!’ No, but I’ll say this, I’ll say it over and over till I drop dead. Ahem \ THE PENTAGON CAME TO THE BUSH ADMIN **3 SEPARATE TIMES** BEFORE THE INVASION ASKING TO TAKE OUT ZAQAWI. ALL 3 TIMES THE ADMIN DENIED THEM PERMISSION, BECAUSE THEY NEEDED HIM ALIVE AND OPERATING IN IRAQ TO JUSTIFY THE WAR. (AQ IS OPERATING IN IRAQ) This is a fact, deal with it. The inexplicable decisions this admin makes are only digging a bigger hole. We does anyone expect them do get us out of a problem they created? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/39 "2005-01-25T16:49:04Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > No, but I’ll say this, I’ll say it over and over till I drop dead. > > Ahem \ > > THE PENTAGON CAME TO THE BUSH ADMIN **3 SEPARATE TIMES** BEFORE THE INVASION ASKING TO TAKE OUT ZAQAWI. ALL 3 TIMES THE ADMIN DENIED THEM PERMISSION, BECAUSE THEY NEEDED HIM ALIVE AND OPERATING IN IRAQ TO JUSTIFY THE WAR. (AQ IS OPERATING IN IRAQ) > > This is a fact, deal with it. The inexplicable decisions this admin makes are only digging a bigger hole. We does anyone expect them do get us out of a problem they created? And I’ll repeat this, ad nauseum. THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT IS THE ONLY LEGITIMATE GOVERNING BODY FOR THE COUNTRY, THE INSURGENTS, WHO HAVE NO POLITICAL UNITY OR MANIFESTO AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE AMERICAN INSTALLED REGIME, ARE NOT LEGITIMATE AND ARE ONLY TO BE CONSIDERED TERRORISTS. I don’t see how this is so hard to see? Even if you try to show legitimacy to them, IT ACCOUNTS FOR ONLY 20% OF THE POPULATION AS THE SUNNIS ARE A MINORITY, whereas the Shia WHO SUPPORT THE ELECTIONS ALONG WITH THE SUNNI KURDS, make up 80% The only heroes out there are the Iraqi people, who have shown great resolve against the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/40 "2005-01-25T17:03:02Z")
I’m not going to let you off the hook that easy son. My point about how the Bush admin handled Zarqawi (which you totally ignored) is this. They are making decisions that fit to their preconcieved notion of things. How can you ignore the fact the Zarqawi is a huge fucking pain in the ass right now, yet he could have been 6 feet under and never a problem in post election Iraq. Bush made the call not to take him out, because a dead Al Quada guy in Iraq served them no good. Don’t you find this remotely fucked up? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And I’ll repeat this, ad nauseum. > > THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT IS THE ONLY LEGITIMATE GOVERNING BODY FOR THE COUNTRY, THE INSURGENTS, WHO HAVE NO POLITICAL UNITY OR MANIFESTO AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE AMERICAN INSTALLED REGIME, ARE NOT LEGITIMATE AND ARE ONLY TO BE CONSIDERED TERRORISTS. Well as far as I know the Iraqi Govt doesn’t yet exist, correct? After the election the question becomes “how legit is the Iraqi Govt?” You’re telling me we didn’t have a hand in that pie? > [@](#): > > The only heroes out there are the Iraqi people, who have shown great resolve against the terrorists. They have? What choice have they had except to hide in their shitty, bombed out, crumbling houses? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=3)