# A part of American Democracy successfully exported to Iraq! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480 "2005-01-24T22:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/101 "2005-01-28T22:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > **Finn Again** > > You are one of the most foolish and frustrating posters on the Dope. And yes, I should not have said I would never respond to you again, I should simply have said that talking with you is like a cross between trying to nail jello to the wall and trying to drive a nail into my forehead. I will most likely not respond to you much in the future, but when your unbound ignorance and stupidity rear their ugly heads, I will most likely respond from time to time. Good, it shut your ridiculous mouth from spewing anymore crap about how we’re baby roasting imperialistic war mongers across my way. Thanks for the favour, now piss off. > [@](#): > > Rephrase: Why do you all hate America and Freedom so much? No, I just wonder why theres so much hostility to a government we’ve set up as a halfway point. > [@](#): > > Counterpoint: Maybe we love freedom as much as you, we just want accountability and pragmatism, maybe we want this war to be prosecuted correctly and the people running this war have a dismal track record which you have the ability to both notice and overlook in the same breath. I’ve never overlooked it, I believe the situation was terrible from the start, the saking of Jay Garner one of the biggest mistakes and replacing him with a yes man from Washington a disaster. I agree that we have to set a course in which we help the Iraqis with minimum difficulty, this does not translate into withdrawing prematurely, or selling the Iraqis short of what we commit to them. > [@](#): > > Maybe the reason we can’t ‘create’ anything there is that we’re running one of the sloppiest military campaigns in a long time? We’ve created a process in which the Iraqis can choose what type of government they want themselves, hardly sloppy. > [@](#): > > How, pray tell, is it ‘wilfully ignorant’ to not pay more attention to people who think the Iraqis have a ‘fighting chance’, whatever the hell that means. Personally, I think it means that they’re going to get a chance to do a whole lot of fighting, but hey… evidently I’m being ‘wilfully ignorant’ by not taking your third-hand opinions as a primary source. Well, the fact that people are ready to write them off before they’ve even started the electorial process and the implementation of the Constitution which will be ratified, ignoring the facts on the ground. I can sometimes be passionate in my descriptions, I apologise if it offended you as such 🙂 [http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/11536](http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/11536) > [@](#): > > We have invaded their country, and stay in it, without the authorization of their people. Idealogues like you do not care that we are operating in violation of the will of the people, even though you claim you’re doing this for them. And, yes, attempting to export western style government, at gunpoint, on a population that wants you to leave is Imperialistic. ‘Most Iraqi politicians quite specifically say they would welcome a continued American presence subject to a Status of Forces Agreement such as the Pentagon retains with countries like Turkey, South Korea, the Philippines, and Germany. The issue is less American troop presence than respect.’ ‘While news-agency stringers can always find an Iraqi who will play to the cameras and demand the Yankees go home, the majority want the Americans to stay. Most pundits and academics who suggest the Iraqis will demand an immediate withdrawal have likely never been to Iraq and are more often than not voicing their own prejudices or basing their informed comment on rote repetition of Arabic newspapers’ [http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/11536](http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/11536) > [@](#): > > without the authorization of their people. Yes, because I’m sure the Iraqi people could somehow authorise an invasion whilst under the rule of Saddam Hussein. > [@](#): > > Idealogues like you do not care that we are operating in violation of the will of the people, even though you claim you’re doing this for them. And, yes, attempting to export western style government, at gunpoint, on a population that wants you to leave is Imperialistic Western style government? Define ‘Western style government’ are these ‘Western’ values within a representative republic somehow antithesis to the people of Iraq? This is no more imperialistic than the occupation of Japan. Try and slowly accept the US government isn’t the root of all evil. > [@](#): > > What block exists in your mangled mind that makes you think it’s okay to use force to install a democracy in a country that wants you to leave? Don’t you understand that they want us gone even though they think it will lead to more violence?. By what fucking right do you claim we can keep our troops there when they want us to go? Imperialist stooge. This amuses me, because we’re giving the Iraqis the chance to elect a government to eventually ask us to leave, there has to be some support of us being there otherwise the position we would be in would be untenable. The fact the Iraqis are heading with elections, embracing the freedoms we’ve helped bring about, is testimony in them at least needing us to help with the final challanges that lay ahead. ‘While Iraqis want to reclaim their highways, they recognize the security function American troops play. Far more Iraqis have died in terrorist violence than Americans. While news-agency stringers can always find an Iraqi who will play to the cameras and demand the Yankees go home, the majority want the Americans to stay. Most pundits and academics who suggest the Iraqis will demand an immediate withdrawal have likely never been to Iraq and are more often than not voicing their own prejudices or basing their informed comment on rote repetition of Arabic newspapers.’ [http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/11536](http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/11536) > [@](#): > > Oh, and, some of the insurgents are indeed morally justified in trying to expell foreign agressors. Some of them are not justified for targeting civilians. The two groups are not the same, however. But you can’t ‘take this seriously’, because reality gets in the way of your bullshit. Yes of course :rolleyes: did you even see the link in the last post to Worldeater? The insurgents are scum, and need to be eradicated, an understanding of their situation will bring about their defeat, but their ideologies and motives aren’t morally justified, neither is their ‘resistance’ Most of the resistance is bound into the concept of honour within Arab society and the desire for revenge, they’ll understand eventually that this leads nowhere. > [@](#): > > Oh, and by the way, it’s not wacko-pinko-commie-pacifists who’re saying that our actions have increased global terrorism The desperation of terrorism will show an increase in the devastation of attacks, as they have their backs to the wall. Remember the last days of the Second World war were the bloodiest. We’ll prevail 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/102 "2005-01-28T23:15:41Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > If the US found out that the elections they would carry without some certain guidelines, we’d be almost certainly back where we started before we invaded. Obviously the elections need guidelines, the point is they’ve been quietly composed to benefit the US (we can reject candidates based on vague criteria), not neccessarily the Iraqis. Of course we’re going to subtly nudge things to go our way, you think we’re in this for nothing? As far as being free, what if they have their election and tell us to get the fuck out, right now? IIRC Condi Rice said we wouldn’t leave. If they tell us to leave and we don’t, then they’re not really that free right? > [@](#): > > Mine hasn’t because I know withdrawing before they’re ready will make it ten times worst, and yet again the administration will be blamed for ‘increasing the terrorism abroad’ The CIA has already stated the war has increased the potential for global terrorism. SH was an asshole don’t get me wrong, and if we could have gotten rid of him quickly and cheaply I would have said “yeah sure why not?” But you get to a point where you say “shit this wasn’t really worth it, look at what this is costing us, look at how many fucking people are getting killed”. I’m really curious about where your threshold lies in this regard. In a year or two from now when it’s 400 billion, 2500 dead soldiers, and 50,000 dead civilians, will you say we might have been better off staying out of it? How about 5 years from now? > [@](#): > > The ‘Americas not the worlds policeman’ bullshit routine? Heard it before, last time it happened half a million died in Rwanda, and countless more in Bosnia. Its not an option for the US to mind its own business, it did that in the 90’s and was awoken by 9/11. Isolationism is dead and counter productive. Do you know why OBL his us on 9/11? According to him it’s because we had troops in Saudi Arabia, home of the holiest place in all Islam. Did you know that? There’s the reason behing 9/11 > [@](#): > > Then it’ll be a failure, and we’ll have to leave, but the situation will get worse, not better with tensions heightened dramatacally. Well no shit we know it will get worse. We’re annoyed at Bush for putting us in this crappy no win situation. The military campaign has totally sucked too, that hasn’t helped. > [@](#): > > I have confidence that we’ll eventually have them trained well, but where as some people say it will take months, I regard it more in terms of years. Yes, and the Iraqis don’t want us there for weeks, let alone years. > [@](#): > > Of course, but then I remember a quote from a President saying ‘we do things not because they are easy, but because they are hard’ that is one of those moments, and we must see it through. He has said a lot of things, some lies, some truths. > [@](#): > > I do, because if it were that bad, the Shia would of completely disregarded the non violent approach and would go after Sunni militants in revenge attacks. Wait till after the election. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/103 "2005-01-28T23:22:25Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Wait till after the election. The news I’m watching right now is telling me that a curfew is now in effect, the airports are closed, and the borders are sealed. How free can you get? They’re also saying that the mood is jubilant. Tell me again about the liberal media? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/104 "2005-01-28T23:23:48Z")
I’m sorry, **World Eater** , even as I hit submit I realized it might sound like I was picking at you. It was just that your sentence gave me a convenient jumping off point. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/105 "2005-01-28T23:27:39Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No, I just wonder why theres so much hostility to a government we’ve set up as a halfway point. My hostility is reserved only for the Bush admin, the assholes who got us into this. > [@](#): > > We’ve created a process in which the Iraqis can choose what type of government they want themselves, hardly sloppy. It’s been two years, large chunks of the country remain unsecured, and civilians are getting blown to pieces, daily, by suicide bombers. I don’t know if you kept up with the pre invasion rhetoric, but the Bush people predicted a few months and US loses in the dozens. Cheney and others have recently admitted that they bungled the military operation. > [@](#): > > The desperation of terrorism will show an increase in the devastation of attacks, as they have their backs to the wall. Remember the last days of the Second World war were the bloodiest. We’ll prevail 🙂 That’s not what the CIA said, go read the link. They said that a new generation of terrorists will be created by this conflict. THE CIA IS SAYING THIS! Lastly, whether they’re getting “bolder” or “desperate” I could care less. At the end of the day you can use whatever adjective you choose, the result is the same, increased terror attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/106 "2005-01-28T23:27:47Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > …As far as being free, what if they have their election and tell us to get the fuck out, right now? IIRC Condi Rice said we wouldn’t leave. If they tell us to leave and we don’t, then they’re not really that free right? [Not true.](http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4060660) Keeping up with current events not your cuppa, eh? > [@](#): > > Do you know why OBL his us on 9/11? According to him it’s because we had troops in Saudi Arabia, home of the holiest place in all Islam. Did you know that? There’s the reason behing 9/11 Not that I care about some stupid ‘home of the holy place’, but Bin Laden seems to claim [other crap](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137095,00.html) as his reason for ordering the attack: > [@](#): > > Admitting for the first time that he ordered the Sept. 11 attacks, bin Laden said he did so because of injustices against the Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel and the United States. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/107 "2005-01-28T23:29:08Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I’m sorry, **World Eater** , even as I hit submit I realized it might sound like I was picking at you. It was just that your sentence gave me a convenient jumping off point. No offense taken whatsoever, I think you make a good point. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/108 "2005-01-28T23:38:16Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > [Not true.](http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4060660) Keeping up with current events not your cuppa, eh? > > > [@](#): > > > > Do you know why OBL his us on 9/11? According to him it’s because we had troops in Saudi Arabia, home of the holiest place in all Islam. Did you know that? There’s the reason behing 9/11 > > Not that I care about some stupid ‘home of the holy place’, but Bin Laden seems to claim [other crap](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137095,00.html) as his reason for ordering the attack: > [@](#): > > Admitting for the first time that he ordered the Sept. 11 attacks, bin Laden said he did so because of injustices against the Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel and the United States. Whichever. It still falls under the rubric of: fucking around with other peoples’ countries = Sept 11 President Bush’s response: “I’ll fuck around with other _univolved_ peoples’ countries.” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/109 "2005-01-28T23:39:38Z")
I’ll give you one of the two. > [@Brutus](#): > > [Not true.](http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4060660) Keeping up with current events not your cuppa, eh? I think that’s a safe thing to say because I’m positive they’ve insure that situation won’t arise. > [@](#): > > But Mr Bush said he was confident Iraq’s new leaders will want the US military to remain in place, helping to stem the bloody upsurge of continued violence. \ \ > [@](#): > > Not that I care about some stupid ‘home of the holy place’, but Bin Laden seems to claim [other crap](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137095,00.html) as his reason for ordering the attack: I’ll give you this one. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/110 "2005-01-28T23:40:50Z")
The spelling error in the previous is for the purposes of verisimilitude. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/111 "2005-01-28T23:45:46Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > …Keeping up with current events not your cuppa, eh?.. That certainly settles that! Given the admin’s spotless reputation for straightforward, unvarnished candor, and all. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/112 "2005-01-28T23:55:53Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Good, it shut your ridiculous mouth from spewing anymore crap about how we’re baby roasting imperialistic war mongers across my way. The war is most certainly imperialistic, the Bush Regime are warmongers, but I’ve never made any claims that we’re roasting babies. Try to keep your mealy and mushy mind in check. Then again, I suppose it’s not much of a surprise that your hyperbole is totally out of joint with reality, so’s your normal mode of thought. Besides spunky, between the two of us, who do you figure more Dopers would figure is a ridiculous little fool? And, by the way, you racist fuck, even when you ‘recanted’ about muslims in your country, you were still a racist about it. Not that this is germane to the point at hand, simply elaborating on the fact that you’re racist pondscum. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No, I just wonder why theres so much hostility to a government we’ve set up as a halfway point. A government that we’ve set up. Try to drain the excess fluid from your skull and realize what this means. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > We’ve created a process in which the Iraqis can choose what type of government they want themselves, hardly sloppy. Again, wonderful willful ignorance you propaganda spouting mouthpiece. You point to them having an intention to have elections. Whee! Now how about not getting electricity and water on for months upon months? Sloppy, naw… the past is erased in the Ryanverse because someone wants to hold elections. Fucking tool. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well, the fact that people are ready to write them off before they’ve even started the electorial process and the implementation of the Constitution which will be ratified, ignoring the facts on the ground. Hey moron, you and your mistaken cronies aren’t ‘facts on the ground.’ I can safely ignore your unjustified optimism because the elections haven’t even happened yet. Schmuck. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > [http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/11536](http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/11536) Hrm, I wonder… your cite uses… how many statistics, how many polls? Well it meantions one or two in passing, but how many are given with hard data? Oh, none… Let’s see… he claims that Iraqis want something and yet, I’ve given you polls where they say the exact opposite. Hrmm… Iraqis telling us they want one thing, idiot telling us that they want another. Who to believe? Oh, choices, choices! By the way, from your own cite > [@](#): > > American administrators and embassy officials regularly impose American regulations designed more for the comfort or social mores of Americans than for those of liberated Iraqis. Nawwwwwwwwwww. That sure aint imperialism. It’s, um… quick, what’s the word for that in the Ryanverse? > [@](#): > > 'Most Iraqi politicians quite specifically say… > **Nobody gives a flying fuck what the politicians say. I’ve given you cites for what the Iraqi people themselves say. But you’re an imperialist fuck, so any group that’s willing to cooperate with you is evidence that the entire society is.** > > 'While news-agency stringers can always find an Iraqi who will play to the cameras and demand the Yankees go home, the majority want the Americans to stay." > **This is an out and out lie, and I’ve given you statistics which prove that. Shame on you.** > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yes, because I’m sure the Iraqi people could somehow authorise an invasion whilst under the rule of Saddam Hussein. No you imperialistic coward, they want us gone _now_. Currently. Today. ["For example, while Cheney noted that when asked what kind of government they would like, Iraqis chose “the U.S. . . . hands down,” in fact, the results of the poll are actually quite different. Twenty-three percent of Iraqis say that they would like to model their new government after the U.S.; 17.5 percent would like their model to be Saudi Arabia; 12 percent say Syria, 7 percent say Egypt and 37 percent say “none of the above.” That’s hardly “winning hands down.” When given the choice as to whether they “would like to see the American and British forces leave Iraq in six months, one year, or two years,” 31.5 percent of Iraqis say these forces should leave in six months; 34 percent say a year, and only 25 percent say two or more years. So while technically Cheney might say that “over 60 percent [actually 59 percent] . . . want the U.S. to stay at least another year,” an equally correct observation would be that 65.5 percent want the U.S. and Britain to leave in one year or less. Other numbers found in the poll go further to dampen the vice president’s and the AEI’s rosy interpretations. For example, when asked if “democracy can work well in Iraq,” 51 percent said “no; it is a Western way of doing things and will not work here.” And attitudes toward the U.S. were not positive. When asked whether over the next five years, they felt that the “U.S. would help or hurt Iraq,” 50 percent said that the U.S. would hurt Iraq, while only 35.5 percent felt the U.S. would help the country. On the other hand, 61 percent of Iraqis felt that Saudi Arabia would help Iraq in the next five years, as opposed to only 7.5 percent who felt Saudi Arabia would hurt their country. Half felt that the United Nations would help Iraq, while 18.5 percent felt it would hurt. Iran’s rating was very close to the United State’s, with 53.5 percent of Iraqis saying Iran would hurt them in the next five years, while only 21.5 percent felt that Iran might help them."]([http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/17021/](http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/17021/)) > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Western style government? Define ‘Western style government’ The kind that Iraqis reject? Look at the data I’ve posted above. Or you could’ve done your own research so your conclusions could be informed rather than propaganda. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > This is no more imperialistic than the occupation of Japan. Japan attacked us, we had global support, the terms of the end of the war included a change in how bussiness was done. In this case, we just rolled into Iraq and imposed our will upon people who didn’t want it. Not equal. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Try and slowly accept the US government isn’t the root of all evil. Hey, asshole, I love my country and would never claim such a thing, you vile, vile idealogue. I would, however, make the point that the United States has done a great many bad things on the world stage, and we need to stop doing them. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > This amuses me, because we’re giving the Iraqis the chance to elect a government to eventually ask us to leave, No, your wacked out imperialistic sentiments aside, we don’t need a government to tell us what to do, the people themselves have spoken. Shame on you for not listening to them. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > there has to be some support of us being there otherwise the position we would be in would be untenable. The fact the Iraqis are heading with elections, embracing the freedoms we’ve helped bring about, is testimony in them at least needing us to help with the final challanges that lay ahead. You really are profoundly stupid. Yes, there is ‘some support’, there is also ‘some support’ for Al Queda. ‘Some support’ does not a mandate make. And, you say they’re heading into elections, whee! Does this mean jack shit? Let’s see how the actual elections go, if there’s civil war following them, before you celebrate their sucess. And, how on earth do elections mean they need specificaly US troops there? I must’ve missed the ‘making shit up’ logic course when I was in college. > [@](#): > > While news-agency stringers can always find an Iraqi who will play to the cameras and demand the Yankees go home, the majority want the Americans to stay. ‘’ **This is an out and out lie which I’ve disproven twice now in this thread. But you’re a scummy idealogue, who doesn’t care what the Iraqi people actually want as long as some talking head will tell you, without statistics, what they really want.** > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > did you even see the link in the last post to Worldeater? The insurgents are scum, and need to be eradicated, No, I did not see a single cite you posted in which the overall stastical distribution of the insurgents is broken down. You have zero data to support your claims. Your attempts to make the insurgents fallaciously fungible are stupid. Quit it. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > an understanding of their situation will bring about their defeat, but their ideologies and motives aren’t morally justified, neither is their ‘resistance’ Most of the resistance is bound into the concept of honour within Arab society and the desire for revenge, they’ll understand eventually that this leads nowhere. Cite for **any** of your lies about the character of the _entire_ insurgency? I thought as much. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The desperation of terrorism will show an increase in the devastation of attacks, as they have their backs to the wall. Remember the last days of the Second World war were the bloodiest. We’ll prevail 🙂 Oooh, a smiley! Now I know that we’ll prevail! Here’s a challenge for you, you rancid imperialist. Move to Bagdad. Tomorrow. Move to Falujah. Move to any part of Iraq that isn’t under iron US military control. Put **your** life on the line, rather than killing other people over your ideology. Disgusting. Oh, and, [“Washington - More than nine out of 10 Iraqis consider US-led forces as occupiers, and a strong majority think their country would be safer if the coalition forces left, according to a poll commissioned by the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA).”](http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1543739,00.html) But hey, as long as you can find a government who’ll do bussiness with you, it’s cool! Just so you know, we tried that once with the Shah. That turned out peachy, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/113 "2005-01-29T00:00:25Z")
Don’t keep it all bottled up inside, **Finn** , that ain’t healthy. Tell us how you really feel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/114 "2005-01-29T00:03:08Z")
“Hi… I’m Finn, and I’m a justiceholic.” “Hi Finn!” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/115 "2005-01-29T00:16:08Z")
Keep fighting the good fight **Finn** we do it because it’s hard not easy! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/116 "2005-01-29T00:27:06Z")
~bows humbly~ Speaking of hard instead of easy, why’d we invade Iraq instead of a nation which has WMD and has stated they’ll use them against us, like North Korea… or a nation with terrorist ties that’ve hurt us many times before, like Saudi Arabia? Or how about nations which abuse their own people, like The Sudan? … cognitive…dissonance…must…justify…war… ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/117 "2005-01-29T00:51:55Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > ~bows humbly~ > > Speaking of hard instead of easy, why’d we invade Iraq instead of a nation which has WMD and has stated they’ll use them against us, like North Korea… or a nation with terrorist ties that’ve hurt us many times before, like Saudi Arabia? Or how about nations which abuse their own people, like The Sudan? > > … cognitive…dissonance…must…justify…war… They wanted to make an example out of someone that was “easy” to attack. Looks like that someone is making an example out of us instead. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/118 "2005-01-29T01:03:10Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > They wanted to make an example out of someone that was “easy” to attack. Looks like that someone is making an example out of us instead. Ahhh… I see. I suggest next time we just nuke a dozen cities at random. “See, that’s what happens when America gets pissed. Do not mess with us fuckers!” ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/119 "2005-01-29T01:41:23Z")
> [@](#): > > **Finn Again** > > The war is most certainly imperialistic, the Bush Regime are warmongers, but I’ve never made any claims that we’re roasting babies. Try to keep your mealy and mushy mind in check. Then again, I suppose it’s not much of a surprise that your hyperbole is totally out of joint with reality, so’s your normal mode of thought. Yes of course. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Besides spunky, between the two of us, who do you figure more Dopers would figure is a ridiculous little fool? And, by the way, you racist fuck, even when you ‘recanted’ about muslims in your country, you were still a racist about it. Not that this is germane to the point at hand, simply elaborating on the fact that you’re racist pondscum. racism is predujice against a race. I talked about culture, I was wrong about it, case closed. So because I made remarks like this makes me unable to show support for the US led Coalition in Iraq? I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > Try to drain the excess fluid from your skull and realize what this means. We set up a government in Afghanistan, I don’t see how this is bad when we talk in relation of Iraq. > [@](#): > > Now how about not getting electricity and water on for months upon months? Sloppy, naw… the past is erased in the Ryanverse because someone wants to hold elections. Oh didn’t those essential services get sabotaged by that ‘resistance’ you were talking about? Yeah, real heroic :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Hey moron, you and your mistaken cronies aren’t ‘facts on the ground.’ This is applicable to you also. > [@](#): > > I can safely ignore your unjustified optimism because the elections haven’t even happened yet. Schmuck. Its ok 🙂 just 3 more days to go. > [@](#): > > Hrm, I wonder… your cite uses… how many statistics, how many polls? Well it meantions one or two in passing, but how many are given with hard data? Oh, none… And polls mean shit, because they’re proven to be inaccurate? > [@](#): > > Let’s see… he claims that Iraqis want something and yet, I’ve given you polls where they say the exact opposite. Hrmm… Iraqis telling us they want one thing, idiot telling us that they want another. Who to believe? Oh, choices, choices! Why should I believe what you’re saying when you’re willfully biased against anything I put up? Al Sadr was a militaman who is one of Americas biggest opponents, yet even he is looking at the elections as something as a positive step forward. 'Even Sheik al-Sadr, who led an uprising against the U.S.-led coalition and originally opposed the elections, now appears to be withholding judgment. ’ > **[‘Men of politics’ campaign for votes on stump in Iraq](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2005/jan/3/20050103-114813-4366r/)** > > BAGHDAD — Just months ago, Fattahlah Ghazi al-Esmaili was penning articles in support of Iraq’s Shi’ite uprising as editor for Ishriqat, a newspaper for rebel cleric Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi’s Army militia. > [@](#): > > Nawwwwwwwwwww. That sure aint imperialism. It’s, um… quick, what’s the word for that in the Ryanverse? That would be ignorance of the situation around them, not intentional imperialism, since there have been many a fuckups in Iraq, I hardly suspect them of doing it on purpose. > [@](#): > > No you imperialistic coward, they want us gone now. Currently. Today. They want us away from the cities and places where they can get caught in the crossfire, I sympathise with that, but they don’t want us out completely. I bet you money that once Iraqi security forces are out in full force, the resentment will subside. > [@](#): > > The kind that Iraqis reject? Look at the data I’ve posted above. Or you could’ve done your own research so your conclusions could be informed rather than propaganda. I wonder where that poll was taken in Iraq, because that site seems to be completely anti war to the point they’d rather see it implode than side with the US government. > [@](#): > > Japan attacked us, we had global support, the terms of the end of the war included a change in how bussiness was done. In this case, we just rolled into Iraq and imposed our will upon people who didn’t want it. Not equal. I hardly suspect the Japanese wanted our will imposed on them, as you say, when we occupied that country. > [@](#): > > Hey, asshole, I love my country and would never claim such a thing, you vile, vile idealogue. I would, however, make the point that the United States has done a great many bad things on the world stage, and we need to stop doing them. I don’t think so, I think what good its done outweights the bad by far. > [@](#): > > No, your wacked out imperialistic sentiments aside, we don’t need a government to tell us what to do, the people themselves have spoken. Shame on you for not listening to them. Don’t those people need a government to represent them dumbass? Or would you be happy for a couple of roving militias tell us to get the hell out? People do and want stupid things, but elected officials, who see the predicament, usually know better, for us to leave right now would ensure the collapse of the Iraqi government, the destruction of the state, genocide of either Sunnis or Kurds (yet again) and the amount of terrorism actually increase to a level unthinkable beforehand. You seem to think I’m naive and a dumbass for actually thinking its a good idea for the US Coalition to remain in Iraq, regardless of the violence. You seem to have this strange optimism if the US left, and somehow would see levels of violence go down, even though the biggest terrorist group in Iraq, which would remain there and be even more bolder now that its defeated a superpower would now be fighting for control. Its better the resentment than to see future generations of Iraqis even more pissed at us for leaving them to face such evil on their own. You can call me whatever you want, I really don’t care I don’t see how us telling Iraqis ‘fuck it we can’t take it anymore’ will allieviate the situation. > [@](#): > > Yes, there is ‘some support’, there is also ‘some support’ for Al Queda. ‘Some support’ does not a mandate make. Yeah, same applies with withdrawal. > [@](#): > > And, you say they’re heading into elections, whee! Does this mean jack shit? Let’s see how the actual elections go, if there’s civil war following them, before you celebrate their sucess. I can’t wait to see the look on your face when this actually doesn’t happen, considering Al Sistanis electoral list involves 30 Sunni candidates, and that countless parties have tried to be as broad based in their support as much as possible, yeah, some basis for civil war there? I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > And, how on earth do elections mean they need specificaly US troops there? I must’ve missed the ‘making shit up’ logic course when I was in college. Well you know, those ‘understandable people’ who are a lil’ angry with the US and its allies, you know have to stop those pesky terrorists from killing Iraqis for speaking their minds, and deciding who they want to represent them. > [@](#): > > No, I did not see a single cite you posted in which the overall stastical distribution of the insurgents is broken down. You have zero data to support your claims. There are 200,000 insurgents, which is itself a wild estimate, 90% within the Sunni populated areas, the population of Iraq is 28 million, I’d hardly say they were representative of the Iraqis (even Sunnis who are numbered to be 5million) views on the occupation or anything in general. Most militants are from the Sunni areas of Iraq, near the centre. > [@](#): > > Cite for any of your lies about the character of the entire insurgency? [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32356-2004Jul6.html?referrer=email](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32356-2004Jul6.html?referrer=email) ‘Arab pride, local and transnational Islamic fundamentalism, and tribal loyalties cultivated by ousted president Saddam Hussein.’ All of which we should fight against to ensure the Iraqis have the best chance of defeating them politically as well. > [@](#): > > Move to Bagdad. Tomorrow. Move to Falujah. Move to any part of Iraq that isn’t under iron US military control. Put your life on the line, rather than killing other people over your ideology. ok, I’ll move to Basra, under the Iron military control of the British :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > But hey, as long as you can find a government who’ll do bussiness with you, it’s cool! Just so you know, we tried that once with the Shah. That turned out peachy, didn’t it? Yeah yeah, I seem to remember the US doing business with Japan, which ended up investing substantially within the economy and becoming the 2nd largest economy in the world, but somehow that had an elected government too! ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/120 "2005-01-29T01:46:39Z")
Hmmmm…for the record, if I lived under an Orwellian terror regime where I was afraid to speak my opinion in whispers for fear some neighbor connected to the government would tell on me…a government for which it was policy…policy!.. to have my right hand removed for little reason or none or watch my daughter being raped as I sat strapped to a chair as punishment for dissent, and if the dictator’s son treated the university’s co-ed program as his personal whorehouse and occassionally killed his date in the morning, and if whole swaths of the citizendry were undergoing systematic genoicide because they weren’t…in Iraq it was Sunni Arab but for the sake of this analogy I’ll say…White Protestant enough, then I would not care if Saddam Hussein himself rolled tanks down my street if within 22 months he set up free elections, immediately permitted civil discourse and worked to repair my collapsing infrastructure. And if any red-blooded American took a pot-shot at my liberators I blow his worthless head off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=7)