# A part of American Democracy successfully exported to Iraq! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480 "2005-01-24T22:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/121 "2005-01-29T01:50:00Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > …and if whole swaths of the citizendry were undergoing systematic genoicide because they weren’t…in Iraq it was Sunni Arab but for the sake of this analogy I’ll say…White Protestant enough… Hmmm…White Protestant is a bad analogy since they are a plurality in the US. So lets say…“Irish enough”. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/122 "2005-01-29T01:52:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > ~bows humbly~ > > Speaking of hard instead of easy, why’d we invade Iraq instead of a nation which has WMD and has stated they’ll use them against us, like North Korea… or a nation with terrorist ties that’ve hurt us many times before, like Saudi Arabia? Or how about nations which abuse their own people, like The Sudan? > > … cognitive…dissonance…must…justify…war… Well, North Korea does have 10 thousand artillery pieces in range of Seoul, the worlds 9th largest economy one of the worlds biggest armies, one of the biggest spenders of GDP (35%) on its military, is nuclear, is biological. And is next to a state which in the last Korean war, came across the border with over 1 million troops. Plus the fact that renovating North Korea would be 10 times more than the cost of the Iraq campaign. Iraq was different, because it was weak and easy to finish off. If we could of done the same to North Korea we would of, but the costs far outweigh the benefits. plus the worlds most populous country being pissed at you isn’t what I call a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/123 "2005-01-29T01:53:48Z")
I’m sorry, I meant to say South Korea has the 9th largest economy, or somewhere in that range. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/124 "2005-01-29T02:01:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ahhh… I see. > I suggest next time we just nuke a dozen cities at random. > > “See, that’s what happens when America gets pissed. Do not mess with us fuckers!” Before Team America showed up in Iraq, Iraq was a happy, sunny place there were rainbows and bunnies and chocolate rivers, with children with gumdrop smiles. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/125 "2005-01-29T02:08:42Z")
**Ryan Liam:** \* for us to leave right now would ensure the collapse of the Iraqi government, the destruction of the state, genocide of either Sunnis or Kurds (yet again) and the amount of terrorism actually increase to a level unthinkable beforehand. \* What I don’t get is: how can you feel so sure that elections will be successful in a country that, by your own account, is only saved from complete collapse, destruction, genocide, and previously unthinkable terrorism by the presence of an occupying army that lots of people resent? I mean, I want the elections to succeed as much as anybody. But I don’t see how it can **simultaneously** be true that (1) elections in Iraq will be successful in setting up an effective, peaceful, democratic government with broad-based popular support because “there’s no basis for civil war there” and (2) the only thing preventing immediate and complete anarchy, destruction, and genocide in Iraq is the presence of a widely resented military occupation force. **CMARII:** _[…] I would not care if Saddam Hussein himself rolled tanks down my street […] And if any red-blooded American took a pot-shot at my liberators I blow his worthless head off._ You’d kill a fellow American for fighting against **Saddam Hussein** if he **invaded your country**?! I understand that your motive would be gratitude for being freed from a (different) oppressive tyrant, but you do see how some people might view it in another light, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/126 "2005-01-29T02:23:53Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Iraq was different, because it was weak and easy to finish off. Interesting, I wasn’t aware we’ve wrapped up operations in Iraq. As **Brutus** suggested, I should do a better job of keeping up with current events. ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/127 "2005-01-29T02:26:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **CMARII:** _[…] I would not care if Saddam Hussein himself rolled tanks down my street […] And if any red-blooded American took a pot-shot at my liberators I blow his worthless head off._ > > You’d kill a fellow American for fighting against **Saddam Hussein** if he **invaded your country**?! I understand that your motive would be gratitude for being freed from a (different) oppressive tyrant, but you do see how some people might view it in another light, don’t you? If Saddam were setting up free elections for me and my fellow Americans to pick our own leaders and our own constitution, if he had permitted civil liberties that I could only experience in my dreams ([and maybe not even then](http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1188945,00.html)), then how am I trading my tyrant for another? That flies in the face of reason. I would not care how other people see it differently. If, to them, the name “American” means something more precious than even the most fundamental freedom, so much so they would take up arms against someone trying to set up a free and stable government, then it is clear that this country ain’t big enough for the both of us. I’ll have to choose sides, and I would choose my liberator over someone who is seeking another tyrant (or a civil war among tyrants) who calls himself “American”. As far as I’m concerned the country would only be that much lighter without a bastard like that. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/128 "2005-01-29T02:29:44Z")
> [@](#): > > What I don’t get is: how can you feel so sure that elections will be successful in a country that, by your own account, is only saved from complete collapse, destruction, genocide, and previously unthinkable terrorism by the presence of an occupying army that lots of people resent? Well us making sure the insurgents don’t kill the voters is a start, secondly the fact its being saved by us from collapse is short term, long term their own military and police forces will ensure this. Helping the Iraqis have an increased say in government which helps them decide who they want representing them, will decrease the support for the terrorists further. > [@](#): > > I mean, I want the elections to succeed as much as anybody. But I don’t see how it can simultaneously be true that > > (1) elections in Iraq will be successful in setting up an effective, peaceful, democratic government with broad-based popular support because “there’s no basis for civil war there” > (2) the only thing preventing immediate and complete anarchy, destruction, and genocide in Iraq is the presence of a widely resented military occupation force. Well the first step to peace is a functioning government which doesn’t use terror, which has broad support and a military and police force there to protect and ensure those freedoms, sometimes acquiring freedom is hard and very bloody, as the people before the war try and retain onto some sort of power. Well even the most Shi’te candidate list, involves Sunnis, to ensure that they represent all differing sects and races in Iraq. All parties know that there has to be some proportional representation for them to gain legitimacy. My theory is that for the parties to actually control the country and meet the needs of the crisis, they’ll need to form a coalition government. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/129 "2005-01-29T02:31:38Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Interesting, I wasn’t aware we’ve wrapped up operations in Iraq. As **Brutus** suggested, I should do a better job of keeping up with current events. Jeez, if you’d monitored the tone of my posts, you’d know I was generalising. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/130 "2005-01-29T02:35:25Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So because I made remarks like this makes me unable to show support for the US led Coalition in Iraq? I don’t think so. Dude, you don’t think, period. And you evidently don’t know what the word ‘germane’ means. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Oh didn’t those essential services get sabotaged by that ‘resistance’ you were talking about? No, you fucking idiot. [BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) – Two weeks after **coalition airstrikes** plunged Baghdad into darkness, power has returned to the Iraqi capital – but only for short periods of time and in scattered areas, a senior U.S. military official told CNN.](http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/17/sprj.nilaw.baghdad.electric/) We didnt’ have backup generators immediately available to help, we didn’t make civilians our priority, we didn’t post enough guards, we fucked up. But we’ve scheduled elections, so the past doesn’t exist. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > This is applicable to you also. Hey, shit for brains, I rely on facts and statistics. You rely on bullshit and dreams. So no, it doesn’t apply to me, you fucking moron. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And polls mean shit, because they’re proven to be inaccurate? Ahhh, keep backpeddling you little roach. Statictics have not been ‘proven’ to be innacurate, you’re lying, again. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Why should I believe what you’re saying when you’re willfully biased against anything I put up? Cite, liar? You’ve posted no staistics, only some opinion pieces. Am I biased against people who don’t use facts to support their claims? Yeah, I’m a Doper. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That would be ignorance of the situation around them, not intentional imperialism, since there have been many a fuckups in Iraq, I hardly suspect them of doing it on purpose. Oh, I see, invading a country and setting up an administration that ignores (or is ignorant of) their needs in favor of your cultural conceits is not imperialistic in the Ryanverse. I knew it. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They want us away from the cities and places where they can get caught in the crossfire, I sympathise with that, but they don’t want us out completely. You lying piece of shit. Cite? No, they most certainly want us out of the entire country. And that’s what all the polls I’ve given you have said. Idiot. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I wonder where that poll was taken in Iraq, because that site seems to be completely anti war to the point they’d rather see it implode than side with the US government. Idiot. It was a Zogby poll. The fact that an anti-war website publishes their findings doesn’t change the ultimate veracity of the data. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I hardly suspect the Japanese wanted our will imposed on them, as you say, when we occupied that country. Much like what your suspicions about Iraq [you’re both stupid and wrong.](http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch23ja.html) Oh, and, by the way, Iraq isn’t Japan, or Afganistan, and the circumstances are different. So shut your fucking mouth about them already. Fool. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t think so, I think what good its done outweights the bad by far. We’ve covered this, it’s not that you don’t think so, it’s that you don’t think, at all. Tell me, how was the School of the Americas good? How was setting up Bin Laden good? How was setting up **Sadaam** good? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Don’t those people need a government to represent them Um, no. See, even without a government, people have… the ability to speak and think! Yes, a miracle! Independant action without a government! The people have told you what they want, you won’t listen until they elect a government? What an asshole! > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Or would you be happy for a couple of roving militias tell us to get the hell out? What percent view us as occupiers rather than liberators? What percent want us gone? You’re either A) deliberately lying B) spouting falsehoods becasuse you’re too stupid to think C) simply braindead you fucking mouthbreather. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > People do and want stupid things, but elected officials, who see the predicament, usually know better, Oh, I see, you’re not just a idealogue and a imperialist, you’re a fucking totalitarinist. Wonderful. Who needs the Will of the People when you’ve got elected official who ‘know better.’ Goddamn you’re a waste of DNA. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > and the amount of terrorism actually increase to a level unthinkable beforehand. **More** willful ignorance??? Do you ever get tired? The CIA, the freaking CIA says we’re making global terrorism worse. Why are you ignoring this and claiming that by not making terrorism worse, we’ll somehow make terrorism worse? Oh, never mind, it’s because you’re an idiot. Sorry. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You seem to think I’m naive and a dumbass for actually thinking its a good idea for the US Coalition to remain in Iraq, regardless of the violence. Oh come now, I think you’re a vile idealogue who spouts “give me liberty of give me death.” while sitting home cozy and safe and demanding that other people, who haven’t made that statement, live and die by it. I view you as morally bankrupt, venal, slime. I believe you to be reprehensible and disgusting as a sample of humanity. I do not, however, make a habit of using the word dumbass. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > better the resentment You didn’t read the link to the CIA position I gave you, did you? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I really don’t care I don’t see how us telling Iraqis ‘fuck it we can’t take it anymore’ will allieviate the situation. How about “fuck, you want us to leave your country and we’ll respect your wishes.” Then, even though you’re an idiot, set up UN peacekeepers, even though, being an idiot, you somehow believe that men with rifles and tanks ‘have no balls.’ > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah, same applies with withdrawal. Stop lying. I have given you figures and facts which prove that, yes, a majority of Iraqis want us out, that upwards of 90% think we’re occupiers and not liberators. The same does not apply. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I can’t wait to see the look on your face when this actually doesn’t happen, You really want to see me grinning ear to ear? If you say so. In case your tiny rodent brain can’t handle it, thinking that the country is headed for darket days doesn’t mean I want that to be the case. I would be very happy if everything turns up roses. Idiot. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > , some basis for civil war there? I don’t think so. Again, stop adding extra words, you don’t think. Full stop. Period. Look at all the militant groups, and all the groups who’re not militants but refuse to grant legitimacy to the election, and there you’ve got a recipe for civil war. For whatever it’s worth I hope you’re right. And we’ll see, but your preemtive-optimism is stupid. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32356-2004Jul6.html?referrer=email](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32356-2004Jul6.html?referrer=email) > > ‘Arab pride, local and transnational Islamic fundamentalism, and tribal loyalties cultivated by ousted president Saddam Hussein.’ I said the **entire** insurgency you dried cum stain. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > ok, I’ll move to Basra, under the Iron military control of the British Go for it. Move somewhere, anywhere, in Iraq so that you can put your life on the line. So you’re not saying “Give them liberty or give them death, regardless of what they actually want. Me? I’m gonna go watch TeeVee and drink a guinness. Why?” ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/131 "2005-01-29T02:44:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Go for it. Move somewhere, anywhere, in Iraq so that you can put your life on the line. So you’re not saying “Give them liberty or give them death, regardless of what they actually want. Me? I’m gonna go watch TeeVee and drink a guinness. Why?” yeah. They don’t _want_ liberty. They can’t _handle_ it, yet. Those Ay-rabs aren’t developed enough to figure out representative government. They’d have been happier if we’d left them under their malignant dictatorship. That’s their _natural state_. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/132 "2005-01-29T02:47:06Z")
**CMARII:** _I would not care how other people see it differently. If, to them, the name “American” means something more precious than even the most fundamental freedom, so much so they would take up arms against someone trying to set up a free and stable government, then it is clear that this country ain’t big enough for the both of us. I’ll have to choose sides, and I would choose my liberator over someone who is seeking another tyrant (or a civil war among tyrants) who calls himself “American”. As far as I’m concerned the country would only be that much lighter without a bastard like that._ But suppose other people know that Saddam Hussein has done some very bad things, and they don’t trust his claims that he’s just trying to help you set up a free and stable government? If you go around not only calling him a “liberator” that you’d choose over your own countrymen, but actually murdering people who try to fight him, wouldn’t that be likely to lead to continued civil unrest and war? Aren’t those exactly the kind of tensions that are causing so much trouble in Iraq? **Ryan:** \*Well the first step to peace is a functioning government which doesn’t use terror, which has broad support and a military and police force there to protect and ensure those freedoms \* Right, I think that we can all agree that those would be very good things for the cause of peace. What I’m not getting is why you seem so optimistic that a government with those qualities is likely to emerge out of what you describe as a country on the brink of dissolution, anarchy, and genocide, restrained from collapse only by a bunch of foreign soldiers enforcing order at gunpoint. **Ryan:** \*sometimes acquiring freedom is hard and very bloody, as the people before the war try and retain onto some sort of power. \* “Before the war”? You mean, you think there **is** actually going to be a “hard and bloody” civil war before the Iraqis can settle down into that functioning government with broad support? :eek: ☹ That is what I’ve been dreading, but I really, really hope you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/133 "2005-01-29T02:47:40Z")
**CMAR II** : Welcome to the Dope. You’ll find that most Dopers have precious little patience for strawmen. I am not one to buck this trend, either. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/134 "2005-01-29T02:59:35Z")
**CMARII:** _They don’t want liberty. They can’t handle it, yet._ I don’t think anybody really believes that Iraqis “don’t want liberty” or “can’t handle liberty”. I’m sure they’re all quite eager for liberty. The question is, can enough of them agree on what the best course would be to actually **achieve** liberty? Conflicts are usually not as simple as one group deliberately fighting for good things and the other group deliberately fighting for bad things. Usually, they **both** think they’re on the side of the good. I expect most of the insurgents in Iraq really believe that they’re struggling to save Iraq, or Islam, or their own territory or tribe or whatever, from destruction or oppression at the hands of hostile powers, national or international. You can’t really solve a situation like that just by saying “Well, I know **I’m** fighting for liberty, so I’m going to blow off the worthless head of anybody who opposes me.” I’m afraid there are too many people saying that already. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/135 "2005-01-29T03:33:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well us making sure the insurgents don’t kill the voters is a start, secondly the fact its being saved by us from collapse is short term, long term their own military and police forces will ensure this. I don’t understand why you don’t get this. I’d absolutely _love_ for the Iraqi forces to be able to police their own country, in fact it’s one of the major steps towards stability. Ok you with me so far? The problem is that _all evidence_ is showing that they can’t police the country now, and they _may never_ be able to control it at a level required to maintan peace. First we’re told 6 months, then a year, now it may be several years. Next week it may be ten years. Have you read the numerous cites we’ve provided that our generals are saying “the training is going really shitty”? Hell, the 150,000 troops from the most modern military in the history of the world with global logistical support, and bleeding edge technology _can barely control_ Iraq. How the hell is some army built in 12 months lacking 1/1000 of the resources going to hold the peace? > [@](#): > > Helping the Iraqis have an increased say in government which helps them decide who they want representing them, will decrease the support for the terrorists further. Why? > [@](#): > > Well the first step to peace is a functioning government which doesn’t use terror, which has broad support and a military and police force there to protect and ensure those freedoms Are you aware there are already several incidents of the new Iraqi police force torturing prisoners? They’re _already_ using torture. Way to start off on the wrong foot guys. > [@](#): > > My theory is that for the parties to actually control the country and meet the needs of the crisis, they’ll need to form a coalition government. My theory is that this new diverse Govt. will experience shitloads of bickering, deadlock, and fracture into a power struggle leading to a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/136 "2005-01-29T03:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **FinnAgain** > We didnt’ have backup generators immediately available to help, we didn’t make civilians our priority, we didn’t post enough guards, we fucked up. But we’ve scheduled elections, so the past doesn’t exist. Are you out of your mind? So the resistance has never attacked and sabotaged the Iraqi power infrastructure? > [@](#): > > We didnt’ have backup generators immediately available to help, we didn’t make civilians our priority, we didn’t post enough guards, we fucked up. But we’ve scheduled elections, so the past doesn’t exist. Oh the humanity! Do you think I haven’t remembered this? Or the fact Jay Garner repeatedly stated we should of flown them in? Do you know that before the war, Baghdad was the only city which got electricity for 24 hours a day, where the majority of the country fared with something like 3-4? Or that the power grid was placed favourably to areas where Saddam has support? Oh look!? Links to the power system being repeatedly sabotaged… [Methodical sabotage of the power system undercuts the repairs that Bechtel and Iraqi electrical engineers make.](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/09/21/MN306432.DTL) Oh look, more sabotage [http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=4507](http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=4507) > [@](#): > > Hey, shit for brains, I rely on facts and statistics. You rely on bullshit and dreams. So no, it doesn’t apply to me, you fucking moron. Of course, so the links I’ve just provided are bullshit too, hmm yeah, interesting. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Statictics have not been ‘proven’ to be innacurate, you’re lying, again. Tell me where that poll was taken. The area it was taken can be seen as disproportionate to the widespread population. Thats why I don’t believe its accurate. > [@](#): > > You’ve posted no staistics, only some opinion pieces. Am I biased against people who don’t use facts to support their claims? Yeah, I’m a Doper. [http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq%20June%202004%20Frequency%20Tables.PDF](http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq%20June%202004%20Frequency%20Tables.PDF) Theres some statistics. Q5 ‘From todays perspective, and all things considered, was it absolutely right, somewhat right, somewhat wrong absolutely wrong that US led Coalition forces invaded Iraq in 2003?’ Yes = 55.2 No = 44.8 > [@](#): > > Oh, I see, invading a country and setting up an administration that ignores (or is ignorant of) their needs in favor of your cultural conceits is not imperialistic in the Ryanverse. I knew it. I don’t see how setting up a representative government is neglecting the needs of the Eye-rack-eees :rolleyes: plenty of Muslims, and Iraqis live in my country and seem to be able to follow the process of representation and government quite fine, I don’t see how a system like that in the Middle East can be so terrible. Remember after the Afghan war in 2001? How the exiles of the country and various warlords set up the government, and how an exile lead the country and was sucessfully re-elected back to office? How is that somehow deemed legitimate and not so for the Iraqis? > [@](#): > > The fact that an anti-war website publishes their findings doesn’t change the ultimate veracity of the data. Of course :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Much like what your suspicions about Iraq you’re both stupid and wrong. Oh, and, by the way, Iraq isn’t Japan, or Afganistan, and the circumstances are different. So shut your fucking mouth about them already. Fool. Oh oh, but those populations didn’t ask for that pesky US to roll its way in and liberate its people did it? So how could it possibly have legitimacy in the eyes of its citizens? No Iraq isn’t Japan or Afghanistan, but they’re human beings, and they like the fact they’ve been liberated from oppression. > [@](#): > > Tell me, how was the School of the Americas good? How was setting up Bin Laden good? How was setting up Sadaam good? Saddam came to power through an internal coup right on the cusp of the Iranian revolution, we didn’t install him dumbass. The Contras were a mistake, I agree. > [@](#): > > The people have told you what they want, you won’t listen until they elect a government? What an asshole! Yeah! It’ll just be like Afghanistan, with all those pesky warlords! Better yet try Somalia! I mean damn, me wanting them to have a responsible government rather than a few fiefdoms is really selfish isn’t it? 🙂 > [@](#): > > Oh, I see, you’re not just a idealogue and a imperialist, you’re a fucking totalitarinist. Because I’d rather see a regulated democratic government than complete anarchy? Stop twisting my words. > [@](#): > > Who needs the Will of the People when you’ve got elected official who ‘know better.’ Goddamn you’re a waste of DNA. Governments usually speak to other **Governments** when dealing in international relations dumbass, and people elect officials to organise what they’ve set out in their manifestos to do. Its called representation, you know, what we’re achieving in Iraq right now? > [@](#): > > More willful ignorance??? Do you ever get tired? The CIA, the freaking CIA says we’re making global terrorism worse. Why are you ignoring this and claiming that by not making terrorism worse, we’ll somehow make terrorism worse? Oh, never mind, it’s because you’re an idiot. Sorry. I stated that I believe it will get even more unpleasant if we did leave, I seem to remember the British rule of Northern Ireland, and how we all knew there’d be an intense open war on the streets if the British Army left, the same applies to Iraq. It would only worsen the situation for everyone. > [@](#): > > Oh come now, I think you’re a vile idealogue who spouts “give me liberty of give me death.” while sitting home cozy and safe and demanding that other people, who haven’t made that statement, live and die by it. I view you as morally bankrupt, venal, slime. I believe you to be reprehensible and disgusting as a sample of humanity So because I support the Americans in Iraq, and the British and the Government of Iraq, I should go out there and defend it? Hey I would if I could, but since I have bad health condition, I think I’d be more than useless. But lets put this proposition forward to you FinnAgain If you’re that disgusted by what the Bushco and his cronies are doing in Iraq, I implore you to go there and stop it yourself. > [@](#): > > You didn’t read the link to the CIA position I gave you, did you? As I keep saying, its better the resentment than open out genocide after we left, because we both know that would be a certainty. > [@](#): > > How about “fuck, you want us to leave your country and we’ll respect your wishes.” Then, even though you’re an idiot, set up UN peacekeepers, even though, being an idiot, you somehow believe that men with rifles and tanks 'have no balls The idea of UN peacekeepers trying to keep the ‘peace’ in Iraq is laughable, where do you think you would be able to find the troops who’d commit to a Somalinised Iraq? Who would think America needed forgiving after that disaster, who would think then after that struggle and sacrifice, America would have the balls to take on terrorism, to take on the likes of Al Zarqawi, the ‘resistance’ all I see is a world which would be pissed at Americans for dumping the Iraqis in the shithole and handing the terrorists a victory on a plate. When was the last time a UN peacekeeping force without American and Western contingents ever won a battle? > [@](#): > > I have given you figures and facts which prove that, yes, a majority of Iraqis want us out, that upwards of 90% think we’re occupiers and not liberators. And? The government of Iraq is there to protect the civilians from whatever harm comes to them, if it was that it needs those troops at expense of the views of the citizens, then so be it. > [@](#): > > In case your tiny rodent brain can’t handle it, thinking that the country is headed for darket days doesn’t mean I want that to be the case. I would be very happy if everything turns up roses. Good. But it will happen with our help, sorry to dissapoint. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Look at all the militant groups, and all the groups who’re not militants but refuse to grant legitimacy to the election, and there you’ve got a recipe for civil war. For whatever it’s worth I hope you’re right. The supreme council for Islamic revolution had 10,000 in its own private militia, its also the largest party within Iraq. It also supports the elections. Yeah Sunnis can be a pain in the ass, but why should 20% of the population stop 80% from voting? Seems very unfair to stop it all for a small minority. > [@](#): > > I said the entire insurgency you dried cum stain. Are you blind? I just described it right there. > [@](#): > > Go for it. Move somewhere, anywhere, in Iraq so that you can put your life on the line. So you’re not saying “Give them liberty or give them death, regardless of what they actually want. Me? I’m gonna go watch TeeVee and drink a guinness. Why?” Because you’re blind to the fact that Iraqis would rather sacrifice themselves for this election than give in to some dumbass pre conceived notions that they’re not ready for democracy? Go drink your beer, then drink another four. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/137 "2005-01-29T07:47:24Z")
-Moron. We knocked out the power system, we didn’t allocate enough troops to protect them from future attacks, we didn’t get it back up and running. Stop being a nit picking idiot and trying to pass the buck, mmm kay? > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Tell me where that poll was taken. The area it was taken can be seen as disproportionate to the widespread population. Thats why I don’t believe its accurate. No, you don’t believe it because you’re an idealogue and it conflicts with your pet ideology. Be honest. [If you weren’t too damn lazy to live, you could’ve looked the results up yourself.](http://www.zogby.com/news/SearchNews.dbm) [And as I said you piece of shit, it’s a Zogby poll, they have integrity, you do not.](http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=734) > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Theres some statistics. Which would be fine, except we weren’t discussing how many Iraqis wanted the invasion, but how many still wanted us in the country and I’ve proven, several times now, that they don’t want us there. So shut your gob already you vacuous tool. None of those statistics prove what you think they do. Schmuck. Hell, what are the first two answers to question five? The fear that chaos will continue and that the occupational troops won’t leave. Fucking idiot. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > I don’t see how setting up a representative government is neglecting the needs of the Eye-rack-eees You don’t see because you’re Blind. Please try to keep up. See, the Iraqis have already spoken, they don’t want a western style government, and they want the troops gone. You’re scum, so you won’t listen to them until they have a government in place. Clear now asshole? > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Remember after the Afghan war in 2001?? Did I not tell you to shut your ignorant mouth about that? One country is not another, and what one people view as fine another will have a problem with. Shut your damn mouth on this issue. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > No Iraq isn’t Japan or Afghanistan, but they’re human beings, and they like the fact they’ve been liberated from oppression. Listen you dense shit for brains ideologue: **they want us to leave**. Stop talking about the will of the people if you won’t follow it. Admit that you’re just a petty tyrant who has stolen the word freedom. Shame should be your constant traveling companion, if you had any honor, at all. Coward. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Saddam came to power through an internal coup right on the cusp of the Iranian revolution, we didn’t install him dumbass. Piece of shit liar. [" The U.S. government and Saddam Hussein go way back, four decades, at least. In fact, Saddam Hussein got his real start working hand-in-hand with the American CIA in the early 1960s. The Iraqi regime then in power had relatively broad support in the Iraqi population, having overthrown the much-hated Iraqi monarchy, which had been put in place by Britain after World War I. The new Iraqi government expressed a nationalist defiance toward the almost complete domination of the country by the big oil companies. This was too much for the U.S. government, which decided to crush Iraqi insolence and defiance. In 1963, the CIA engineered a military coup, one of its most important successes in a long history of overthrowing governments around the world. The new regime, which the CIA had helped to install, was led by generals connected to the Baath Party, the party of Saddam Hussein. The CIA worked closely with the new government to help to hunt down, torture and murder thousands of members and sympathizers of the Iraqi Communist Party and anyone else who opposed the new regime. Hussein was a leading Baath Party operative who worked closely with the CIA in this witch hunt. In fact, CIA operatives later said that Hussein was a frequent visitor and guest at CIA headquarters in Cairo, Egypt, months before the coup. This formed the beginnings of a partnership which would flower in later decades."](http://the-spark.net/other/saddam.html) > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Yeah! It’ll just be like Afghanistan, [Idiot](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3541562/) Besides, you piece of shit two cent tyrant, they want you to leave! The people want you out! Bringing up any other nation doesn’t cut it, because this one wants you gone, gone, gone. You disgusting waste of space. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Because I’d rather see a regulated democratic government than complete anarchy? Stop twisting my words. Yes you totalitarian piece of shit! The Iraqis tell you to leave, but you refuse to because your ideology isn’t fulfilled yet! You are disgusting, you are warm festering shit in the sunlight. You sick sad scummy bastard. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Governments usually speak to other **Governments** when dealing in international relations Hey, you tyrnaical piece of shit, they don’t have a government yet, but their ‘representation’ has been that they’ve told us to go! They’ve already said it! Fuck you, you fucking waste of humanity, you fucking cancer upon freedom, you fucking disease. Fuck you. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > So because I support the Americans in Iraq, and the British and the Government of Iraq, I should go out there and defend it? Hey I would if I could, but since I have bad health condition, I think I’d be more than useless. No you reading comprehensionally challenged monkey. You don’t have to go defend jack shit, just put your life on the line. Ya know, like you’re willing to put unwilling Iraqis lives on the lines who’ve told you they want you out of their country. Fucking honorless coward. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > As I keep saying, its better the resentment than open out genocide after we left, because we both know that would be a certainty. Willfully ignorant piece of shit! The CIA, you know what those letters stand for??? The fucking CIA has said this will make global terrorism worse. Besides, as already stated, the UN could maintain order without stirring up anti-American sentiment the world over. What a moron you are. Your uninformed opinion doesn’t trump the CIA you asshole. What you keep saying is irrelevant if intelligence experts disagree, and you’re being willfully ignorant to boot. (oh, and, willful ignorance isn’t just an insult to toss around. You are actually being willfully ignorant ,so you can’t apply the label to anybody else as you keep trying to do. The insults will stick to you because you’re vile. Sorry.) > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > The idea of UN peacekeepers trying to keep the ‘peace’ in Iraq is laughable, where do you think you would be able to find the troops who’d commit to a Somalinised Iraq? Moron, Iraq is Iraq, not Ireland, not Japan, not Somalia. We would find, I’d wager, that virtually every major nation on earth would want peace and stability in Iraq and would help, if we got the fuck out of the way. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Who would think America needed forgiving after that disaster, who would think then after that struggle and sacrifice, America would have the balls to take on terrorism, to take on the likes of Al Zarqawi, the ‘resistance’ all I see is a world which would be pissed at Americans for dumping the Iraqis in the shithole and handing the terrorists a victory on a plate. We’ve covered this, you’re both Blind and stupid. The world would be happy that America got out of the way, admitted its mistakes and tried to fix things. And, you paleolitic piece of shit, the world will realize that America will always protect her interests and citizens, even though troglodytes like you will worry about ‘balls’ Schmuck. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > When was the last time a UN peacekeeping force without American and Western contingents ever won a battle? American and western? Who ever said we’d exclude western powers from helping with Iraq? Idiot. Oh, and, as for the last time a non-US peacekeeping force won a victory… [November seventh, 2004. Asshole.](http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/printer_1996.shtml) > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > And? The government of Iraq is there to protect the civilians from whatever harm comes to them, if it was that it needs those troops at expense of the views of the citizens, then so be it. Fascist fuck! The government does not work at the espense of the views of the citizens, it’s supposed to follow them! You are a disgusting, pathetic little tyrant. Your eyes should boil and your skin peel off every time you dare utter the word ‘freedom.’ You are contemptible. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Are you blind? I just described it right there. No, you’re Blind, we’ve covered this. Try to keep up you braindead husk of a human. You proved nothing, your article talks about the factors for the Sunni insurgents **only** , it mentions the Shiites in passing, and you’re an idiot. You’ve not shown the character of the **entire insurgency**. You’re a lying piece of shit. From your own damn cite : > [@](#): > > One Iraqi source estimated that at least 28 different insurgent groups have formed in recent months, some Do you have the motivations and charter of those 28 groups? No? Oh… so you’re lying through your teeth again… I am very surprised, honestly. And in case you’re wondering, slapping the label “Sunni” or “Shiite” onto a group doesn’t make them fungible. But to a racist like you, that’s probably confusing. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Because you’re blind to the fact that Iraqis would rather sacrifice themselves for this election than give in to some dumbass pre conceived notions that they’re not ready for democracy? Awwww, is da widdle totalitarian wire twying to appropwiate an insuwt? Dats so cuuuuuute! Remember asshole, you’re the one who is Blind, not others. And, you liar, it was the **Iraqi People** who said they wouldn’t want a western style democracy. That even though they want elections, they also want us gone. You are disgusting you fucking ideologue. > [@Ryan Liam](#): > > Go drink your beer, then drink another four. Can’t say enough for reading comprehension. You go to Iraq, tomorrow. And while I do not wish death on you, I do wish that you can observe the horror of your policies first hand. Who knows, maybe you’ll get lucky and get picked up by the Iraqi police force and sodomized. Wouldn’t that be a triumph of democracy! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/138 "2005-01-29T07:51:26Z")
Gah! I’m sorry everybody… tyrants, idiots, racists, and the willfully ignorant really make me see red. To have all that wrapped up in one package… whoa boy! I’m going to stop responding to this blight upon humanity now. I will repeat: May history judge you kindly, may god have mercy on your soul. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/139 "2005-01-29T07:51:47Z")
Wow that’s quite some effort of bile **FinnAgain** 😃 _applause_ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/140 "2005-01-29T07:58:52Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Wow that’s quite some effort of bile **FinnAgain** 😃 > > _applause_ ~bows humbly~ Well, it is the Pit… I love freedom, I love justice, I love honor, I love basic human decency. I can’t even begin to describe exactly how scum like him makes me feel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=8)