# A part of American Democracy successfully exported to Iraq! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480 "2005-01-24T22:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/161 "2005-01-29T20:59:36Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well an Iraqi government which took a neutral stance towards the Americans and domestic opposition would foster at least some legitimacy in the eyes of the majority in Iraq. The fundamental problem is that many Iraqis don’t feel the Govt. is “neutral”. They think it’s an American puppet govt. Over coming the feeling is next to impossible. > [@](#): > > It worth a shot considering any Iraqi government will lose out if considered to be on the side of any of the extremes. Worth a shot? How many times have you taken a “stab” at something and it didn’t work out. Afterwards one usually utters “well, it was worth a shot”. we’re playing god here with peoples lives, there is no taking shots, we have to know _exactly_ what the fuck we’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/162 "2005-01-29T22:43:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But suppose other people know that Saddam Hussein has done some very bad things, and they don’t trust his claims that he’s just trying to help you set up a free and stable government? If you go around not only calling him a “liberator” that you’d choose over your own countrymen, but actually murdering people who try to fight him, wouldn’t that be likely to lead to continued civil unrest and war? Aren’t those exactly the kind of tensions that are causing so much trouble in Iraq? Killing terrorists is not “civil war”. That’s LAW AND ORDER. If the Iraqis killed every terrorist in the country it would not at all resemble the REAL civil war that Zarqawi has pledged to foment. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t think anybody really believes that Iraqis “don’t want liberty” or “can’t handle liberty”. I’m sure they’re all quite eager for liberty. > > The question is, can enough of them agree on what the best course would be to actually achieve liberty? Conflicts are usually not as simple as one group deliberately fighting for good things and the other group deliberately fighting for bad things. > > Usually, they both think they’re on the side of the good…You can’t really solve a situation like that just by saying “Well, I know I’m fighting for liberty, so I’m going to blow off the worthless head of anybody who opposes me.” I’m afraid there are too many people saying that already. Sure you can. That’s what we did here in the America! After the American colonies won independence from Britain there were over 100K refugees that fled to Canada, Britain, and the Bahaman Islands. That was out of a population of about 500K. Our forefathers hanged loyalists. They had not patience with those unwilling to embrace, let alone tolerate the New America. The terrorists may think they are on the right side but they aren’t delusional enough to believe their fighting for liberty…unless it is the liberty to oppress their fellow citizens. Those Iraqis who did well under Saddam or who want an Islamist state will have to change their minds, leave, or submit their bodies to fertilize the new Iraq. 90% of Iraqis are apparently in favor of a democratic Iraq. That’s plenty. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > -Moron. We knocked out the power system, we didn’t allocate enough troops to protect them from future attacks, we didn’t get it back up and running. Stop being a nit picking idiot and trying to pass the buck, mmm kay? Wow! That’s really ignorant. The power system was totally decayed from Saddam’s subversion of the Oil-For-Food Program. Riverbend may talk about the terrible undependability of power, but what she knows and doesn’t say is that before the invasion, everyone _outside_ of Baghdad only got a few hours of electricity each day. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/163 "2005-01-29T22:54:25Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > Killing terrorists is not “civil war”. That’s LAW AND ORDER. If the Iraqis killed every terrorist in the country it would not at all resemble the REAL civil war that Zarqawi has pledged to foment. And I question the US’s definition of “Terrorists”. I personally think their definition is “anyone who is against their agenda”. What our fucking agenda happens to be I have no idea. > [@](#): > > The terrorists may think they are on the right side but they aren’t delusional enough to believe their fighting for liberty…unless it is the liberty to oppress their fellow citizens. Or pehaps they thnk they’re fighting for their liberty. > [@](#): > > Those Iraqis who did well under Saddam or who want an Islamist state will have to change their minds, leave, or submit their bodies to fertilize the new Iraq. 90% of Iraqis are apparently in favor of a democratic Iraq. That’s plenty. That’s just total busllshit. Look at the polls that have been posted. > [@](#): > > Wow! That’s really ignorant. The power system was totally decayed from Saddam’s subversion of the Oil-For-Food Program. Yes it was, and _we took out the remaining part of it_. In addidtion to that we can’t even protect it from insurgents. The strongest military power in the world cant protect it, how will the Iraqis? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/164 "2005-01-29T22:55:37Z")
That should read “anyone against our agenda”. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/165 "2005-01-29T23:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Those Americans! They roasted that kid and ate him with their fellow Zionist compatriots! They used his blood to make pastry! How about [killing the parents of six Iraqi kids and leaving them splattered with their parents’ blood?](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6857145/site/newsweek/) Or is that not hyperbolic enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/166 "2005-01-29T23:41:37Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > Wow! That’s really ignorant. The power system was totally decayed from Saddam’s subversion of the Oil-For-Food Program. Riverbend may talk about the terrible undependability of power, but what she knows and doesn’t say is that before the invasion, everyone _outside_ of Baghdad only got a few hours of electricity each day It is really ignorant, but the ignorance isn’t mine. [Electricity output is down about 20 percent from before the war](http://occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=8852) [At the Al-Dora power station in Baghdad on May 3, the deputy manager of the plant, Bashir Khalaf Omair, said that electricity output in Iraq prior to the March, 2003 invasion was around 5,000 Megawatts (MW) a day. Iraq’s Acting Minister of Electricity, Ra’ad Al-Haris, said in an interview Thursday that the current supply of electricity produced in Iraq measures between 3,600-4,000 MW](http://www.antiwar.com/jamail/?articleid=2584) However you slice it, less power is being produced, and it took us an unnaceptable ammount of time to get Baghdad anywhere near pre-war levels. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/167 "2005-01-29T23:46:52Z")
Anecdotal evidence of course, but I have a close friend who’s a contracter for Haliburton over there, and he says the infrastructre is shot to shit. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/168 "2005-01-30T00:28:38Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Those Americans! They roasted that kid and ate him with their fellow Zionist compatriots! They used his blood to make pastry! > How about [killing the parents of six Iraqi kids and leaving them splattered with their parents’ blood?](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6857145/site/newsweek/) Or is that not hyperbolic enough for you? So because of this, we should leave Iraq immediately, you’re going to let mistakes and accidents such as these dictate foreign policy now? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/169 "2005-01-30T00:32:05Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Anecdotal evidence of course, but I have a close friend who’s a contracter for Haliburton over there, and he says the infrastructre is shot to shit. Quite literally, I’ll bet. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/170 "2005-01-30T00:34:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It is really ignorant, but the ignorance isn’t mine. > > [Electricity output is down about 20 percent from before the war](http://occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=8852) > > [At the Al-Dora power station in Baghdad on May 3, the deputy manager of the plant, Bashir Khalaf Omair, said that electricity output in Iraq prior to the March, 2003 invasion was around 5,000 Megawatts (MW) a day. > Iraq’s Acting Minister of Electricity, Ra’ad Al-Haris, said in an interview Thursday that the current supply of electricity produced in Iraq measures between 3,600-4,000 MW](http://www.antiwar.com/jamail/?articleid=2584) > > However you slice it, less power is being produced, and it took us an unnaceptable ammount of time to get Baghdad anywhere near pre-war levels. Saddam portioned out electricity based on _loyalty_ so therefore places like Baghdad got 24 hour power, and places like Basra got next to none, after the war, we with our kind hearts, decided there had to be equal distribution of the electricity being generated. So this is why Baghdad gets blackouts, contributing with the sabotage and attacks on the power stations. Add this with a completely fucked up power system of distribution and outdated power stations, makes the situation worse. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/171 "2005-01-30T00:35:35Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Saddam portioned out electricity based on _loyalty_ so therefore places like Baghdad got 24 hour power, and places like Basra got next to none, after the war, we with our kind hearts, decided there had to be equal distribution of the electricity being generated. So this is why Baghdad gets blackouts, contributing with the sabotage and attacks on the power stations. Add this with a completely fucked up power system of distribution and outdated power stations, makes the situation worse. OK, I’ve had enough. You wanna cite every single sentence in this post, please? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/172 "2005-01-30T00:38:22Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So because of this, we should leave Iraq immediately, you’re going to let mistakes and accidents such as these dictate foreign policy now? No because of this we shouldn’t be surprised that Iraqis might not like us as much as you think. You see it as mistakes and accidents, they don’t view in as kind a light. I’m sure if some mofo blew up wour family and went “uh oh spaghetti-O!” you wouldn’t take too kindly to it either. ---
**Author:** ![Wonko\_The\_Sane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Wonko\_The\_Sane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wonko_The_Sane)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/173 "2005-01-30T00:40:18Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Yeah, but dude, saying that you are declaring war on democracy is just waaay more bitching than saying “vote for me.” > > Al Zarquwi sounds like a dude dedicated to becoming more bitching. 😉 Not **bitching** , _bitchin’._ I agree otherwise. However, declaring war on something could also be seen as a big cry for attention, even bigger than saying “vote for me”. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/174 "2005-01-30T00:45:45Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I’m sure if some mofo blew up wour family and went “uh oh spaghetti-O!” you wouldn’t take too kindly to it either. Depends, is it the kind with the little meatballs, or just noodle rings in thin tomato sauce? [The water’s been out lately in parts of Baghdad too.](http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/175 "2005-01-30T00:48:15Z")
> [@](#): > > A large amount of damage was done to power plants and the transmission and distribution system during the 1990 Gulf War. Though damage to infrastructure was less severe as a direct result of the 2003 conflict, a number of substations and transmission lines were destroyed and this was exacerbated by pillage and sabotage which brought about a paralysis of the electrical system. [http://ir04.events.pennnet.com/content.cfm?Navid=1656&Language=](http://ir04.events.pennnet.com/content.cfm?Navid=1656&Language=) > [@](#): > > For the impoverished tribes, military and government service was a respectable and profitable livelihood as well as a vehicle for upward mobility. Saddam Hussein also rewarded the villages of loyal tribesmen by providing roads, electricity, and water systems [http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/tribes.htm](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/tribes.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/176 "2005-01-30T00:51:51Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > No because of this we shouldn’t be surprised that Iraqis might not like us as much as you think. > > You see it as mistakes and accidents, they don’t view in as kind a light. > > I’m sure if some mofo blew up wour family and went “uh oh spaghetti-O!” you wouldn’t take too kindly to it either. I know, but to think people won’t get killed in an insurgency is tantamount to stupidity, I never rejected the notion that Iraqis would get pissed, lets all hope that the Coalition stops from making the same mistakes in the future. > [@](#): > > The water’s been out lately in parts of Baghdad too. Riverbend? Please. :rolleyes: If there isn’t anyone more biased than that woman, I haven’t met them. There are plenty of other people complaining about the water supply in their less than completely biased blogs. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/177 "2005-01-30T00:57:29Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I never rejected the notion that Iraqis would get pissed, lets all hope that the Coalition stops from making the same mistakes in the future. Didn’t someone say a few posts ago “that’s war”? As long as the fighting continues, incidents like this will continue. I would hope if we could magically prevent these sort of things from happening, we already would have. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/178 "2005-01-30T00:59:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Riverbend? Please. :rolleyes: If there isn’t anyone more biased than that woman, I haven’t met them. **Ryan** , meet **Ryan**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/179 "2005-01-30T01:01:39Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Didn’t someone say a few posts ago “that’s war”? > > As long as the fighting continues, incidents like this will continue. I would hope if we could magically prevent these sort of things from happening, we already would have. Yes, it is war, it has bad concequences, but I don’t think the processes we’ve created in Iraq, such as their freedom to speak out, to choose what government they want, overall we’ve done the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480/180 "2005-01-30T01:02:48Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > **Ryan** , meet **Ryan**. 🙂 How am I biased. Explain, I’m at loss of thought here, then explain to me, how you’re not biased, because I’m at a loss at that too 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-part-of-american-democracy-successfully-exported-to-iraq/286480.md?page=10)