# A pitting for Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2021, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791 "2021-07-19T01:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/181 "2021-07-20T08:13:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Just like you can’t assume someone who is not a theist is an atheist. Well, let’s just first say it doesn’t matter. The semantics don’t matter. In so far as it matters at all, it’s because of the game of saying atheism is a “faith” and has a burden of proof. It doesn’t. I don’t have a burden of proof to show there’s no Godzilla because I never claimed to know there’s no Godzilla (and even those that claim to know, are usually not trying to convince others to hold that position). As long as we’re not playing that game, I don’t care if someone wants to call me a weak atheist, agnostic atheist or anything else. But I would still balk at someone calling my position a “belief”. What, supposedly, is my belief? > [@BigT](#): > > However, as stated in this thread, we actually say that anyone who has never heard of a god is not an atheist. Thus we can conclude that we do not define “atheist” as a mere lack of belief. Look at it like this. In terms of forming an opinion on a claim, C, there are at least these 3 states: 1 A person who has never heard of C 2 A person who’s heard C and drawn no conclusion 3 A person who has decided that they believe C to be true or false I wouldn’t call (1) an atheist, but I would say that (2) is. And to be honest, it’s a bit of a trick, since adults belonging to group (1) for the claim “God exists” are pretty rare. So, no, I wouldn’t agree that this implies that atheism is actually a belief. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/182 "2021-07-20T08:18:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We’re so religion drenched in our culture that I think it is difficult to see that lack of god belief is the reasonable default - not belief in the god or gods your parents believe in. 👍 I was born an atheist and never saw the need to change. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/183 "2021-07-20T08:41:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t merely not believe in the Loch Ness monster. I believe there is no Loch Ness monster. I originally had no idea of the concept. Then I was exposed to the idea. I decided, based on what the information that I was given at that exact moment, that the Loch Ness monster did not exist. I went from lacking a belief in the Loch Ness monster to having the belief that the Loch Ness monster does not exist. This matches how I think about atheism. After researching and looking at the evidence I concluded god(s) don’t exist. It’s a positive belief, different to if I’d never been introduced to the idea. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/184 "2021-07-20T12:05:21Z")
So, the indirect response to this: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > > > **I maintain that the threat posed to the weak, the poor and the unpopular are greater from people of science and enlightenment than from those of religion.** > > Can you provide a concrete example of such a threat? In what way is science being used to oppress the weak, poor and unpopular? Do you consider modern secular views on religion to be that threat, or something else? Is this?: > [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Do you figure the destruction of an entire generation of Gay people will come about because of science or because of religion? > > Already science has given us the ability to ensure imperfect people are not born. Imperfect might mean female, deformed, intellectually challenged or whatever. Soon parents will be able to ensure they will not have a Gay child. I’m not asking for linked cites to support your claims. I’m just curious about where all this is coming from. What led you to the conclusion that the ultimate aim of science is eugenics? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/185 "2021-07-20T12:22:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m just curious about where all this is coming from. I’m guessing that his time in Saudi Arabia turned him into a religious nutball. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/186 "2021-07-20T12:34:42Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m guessing that his time in Saudi Arabia turned him into a religious nutball. He never struck me as a religious nutball while he was posting as **Paul\_in\_Saudi**. So I’m slightly intrigued by the change in tone since he left the Kingdom. Perhaps he’ll return to explain. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/187 "2021-07-20T13:10:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The example Matt Dillahunty gives is showing a jar of gumballs and asking if you believe that there are an even number of gumballs. A rational person answers “no” but does that imply that they do believe that there’s an odd number of gumballs? > No. Neither claim is believed because there is no grounds to believe either (even though we know one of the two claims is necessarily true). Slight modification, in that it is not _showing_ a jar of gumballs, but claiming to have a jar of gumballs without presenting it for inspection. And an organized religion claims to know _exactly_ how many gumballs are in that jar. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/188 "2021-07-20T13:47:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’d have to ask @Miller what he meant—without the implication that it’s something trivial like prayer. I assume you just missed it upthread (since you clearly tend to read threads pretty thoroughly), but he did give some concrete examples of his concerns. > [@Miller](#): > > It was in the US, and no, that\* wasn’t a concern. My chief concern is that Christians are going to [break up my marriage](https://www.glamour.com/story/the-vatican-put-out-a-statement-condemning-same-sex-marriages). Second place concern is that some Christian will decide that being gay is sufficient reason to [fire me](https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/scott-maxwell-commentary/os-op-gay-teacher-fired-florida-scott-maxwell-20201023-mnfwdiqejrd2blf4cermulgeji-story.html), or [throw me out of my house](https://www.insider.com/wisconsin-couple-threatened-with-eviction-over-gay-pride-flag-2019-4). Concerns about [my personal safety](https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/co-defendant-testifies-word-faith-minister-article-1.3218230) aren’t really that high on the list, although I do worry about [my wife](https://www.thedailybeast.com/guardian-journalist-lois-beckett-attacked-at-anti-trans-rally-outside-los-angeles-wi-spa), who is trans. \*People praying for him ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/189 "2021-07-20T14:05:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@RitterSport](#): > > > > I’m guessing that his time in Saudi Arabia turned him into a religious nutball. > > He never struck me as a religious nutball while he was posting as **Paul\_in\_Saudi**. So I’m slightly intrigued by the change in tone since he left the Kingdom. It might be that, with his postings no longer subject to possible scrutiny by his bosses and/or Saudi authorities, he feels comfortable letting his freak flag fly. Or, he got bored with JAQing off on Middle East issues. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/190 "2021-07-20T14:08:30Z")
I think we should all pray for him. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/191 "2021-07-20T14:25:11Z")
Let me think about it. If I do… IF I do, I’ll be praying to Joe Pesci. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/192 "2021-07-20T14:51:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I have no problem with those who say that atheism isn’t a religion. It doesn’t have any of the hallmarks of one. But it is a belief–a negative belief, though it may be a weak one. You have to have encountered the idea of a God to be an atheist, and thus you have to have rejected that idea. The problem is that many theists conflate “faith” with “belief.” IOW, theists talk about a “belief” based on weak or no empirical evidence and not a rigorous logical examination. Then, they claim that atheists also have a “belief” so there is no difference between the two. This is wrong, because extraordinarily claims require extraordinary evidence. As mentioned above, the belief in Santa is not the same as a belief that there is no Santa. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > He never struck me as a religious nutball while he was posting as **Paul\_in\_Saudi**. His debate style in other matters is equally lacking. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/193 "2021-07-20T15:13:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Slight modification, in that it is not _showing_ a jar of gumballs, but claiming to have a jar of gumballs without presenting it for inspection. I’m not sure your nitpick is right actually. Matt usually shows the jar of gumballs. The point is you cannot tell that it is an odd or even number just from a glance while talking over a call. Yes, you could count them if you had the jar in hand, but that’s besides the point, which the caller usually understands. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/194 "2021-07-20T17:18:13Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Then, they claim that atheists also have a “belief” so there is no difference between the two. Belief is required for object permanence. We have to be able to believe in things that we cannot currently sense. I “believe” that my car is parked where I left it. This allows us to also “believe” in other things that we cannot directly sense, like atoms or electrons, based on reason. This is entirely different from believing in something for which there is _no_ evidence, and in fact, is often contrary to the evidence that we _do_ have. > [@Mijin](#): > > I’m not sure your nitpick is right actually. I was not meaning to nitpick your description of Matt’s analogy, I was just fleshing out what I thought would be an even better analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/195 "2021-07-20T17:22:34Z")
And he’s just been officially warned for a post shitting on atheists in another thread, after being instructed to leave it alone: > [@Why don't liberals and Democrats fully embrace atheism?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-liberals-and-democrats-fully-embrace-atheism/946421/229): > > Moderating: I always respect and am grateful for the moderators. I agree, overlooking the violence and hatred done by atheists seems to be trying to blame people of faith alone. This is an official warning for repeatedly failing to follow moderator instructions in this thread. You may not “agree” with moderators by misstating their instructions as you simultaneously take your last shot at others who are complying with those instructions. This behavior is provocative and dismissive of pr… My guess is that he has recently “found” Christianity, and has subsequently turned into one of those recently converted assholes who think they know it all. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/196 "2021-07-20T17:27:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This is entirely different from believing in something for which there is _no_ evidence, and in fact, is often contrary to the evidence that we _do_ have. In his brilliant act “Thank You God” the Australian singer and comedian Tim Minchin relates a challenge by a Christian who attempted a gotcha by saying “You don’t go through life only believing in things that you have evidence.” To which Tim replied that how he lives. “What about love?” Tim’s reply: “Love without evidence is stalking.” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/197 "2021-07-20T18:36:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Belief is required for object permanence. We have to be able to believe in things that we cannot currently sense. I “believe” that my car is parked where I left it. This allows us to also “believe” in other things that we cannot directly sense, like atoms or electrons, based on reason. > > This is entirely different from believing in something for which there is _no_ evidence, and in fact, is often contrary to the evidence that we _do_ have. That reminds me of a quote I heard once attributed to Ronald Reagan. Which I’m pleased to say I can actually find online. > **[A quote by Ronald Reagan](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/118043-sometimes-when-i-m-faced-with-an-atheist-i-am-tempted)** > > Sometimes when I'm faced with an atheist, I am tempted to invite him to the greatest gourmet dinner that one could ever serve, and when we have finished ... > Sometimes when I’m faced with an atheist, I am tempted to invite him to the greatest gourmet dinner that one could ever serve, and when we have finished eating that magnificent dinner, to ask him if he believes there’s a cook. Speaking to your point, there should be little doubt that cooks exist. So that wasn’t a particularly clever quote on Ron’s part. Am I misremembering that Paul recently used Reagan as an example of an atheist? I thought I read that but I can’t find it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/198 "2021-07-20T18:37:48Z")
How about a gourmet dinner that includes genocide and childhood cancer, after which he asks if the chef is all knowing, all powerful, all loving, and worthy of worship? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/199 "2021-07-20T18:38:39Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Am I misremembering that Paul recently used Reagan as an example of an atheist? [Scroll up.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/125) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791/200 "2021-07-20T18:39:22Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Am I misremembering that Paul recently used Reagan as an example of an atheist? I thought I read that but I can’t find it. He did: > [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Certainly some religious people said terrible things. So did nonreligious people, such as Ronald Reagan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-paul-was-in-saudi/946791.md?page=11)