# A Pitting for the numerous armchair disaster managers skilled at bitching **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 3, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875 "2005-09-03T07:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/21 "2005-09-03T17:31:12Z")
_runned on_??? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/22 "2005-09-03T18:06:39Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > I do believe in waiting until the event has passed and a critique has been had before passing judgement. Understood. But what we have here (besides a failure to communicate) is a smoke and mirrors, sleight of hand, patter spewing illusionist who is excellent at distraction and misdirection. If we’re going to have any hope of keeping our eye on the pea, we’ve got to keep shouting where we see it going while it’s happening, so we don’t lose it in a jumble of spin and bullshit. Or would you rather we all get so distracted by the price of gas and the next mother-of-a-dead-soldier story so we forget all about the incompetence we’re seeing now? I’m sure lots of high level officials hope we forget about it, just like we’ve (apparantly) forgotten about the “swift justice” we were going to bring to the CIA leak, or the stated reasons for going to war or the dozens of other issues that we were promised would be addressed that haven’t been? The MTV generation has an attention span of about 5 minutes. Unfortunately, they’re being manipulated by people who understand that. If they talk about bringing justice, or accountability or whathaveyou just after this commercial break, we’re all so distracted by the next shiny thing that comes along that we don’t ensure that actual justice is meted out. “Oh, but didn’t Bush say he was going to take care of that?” we mutter, diving back into our latest episode of _American Idol_ while Ben and Jerry’s drips down our double chins of apathy. In fact… …ohhh, what’s that over there? Shiny… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/23 "2005-09-03T18:37:50Z")
I think that when things settle down, we’re going to find that this was clearly mismanaged and poorly planned by all levels of government. This is not going to be swept under any rug. I used to work for the IBM Disaster Recovery business unit, this is their bread and butter. They restore critical computer systems for businesses who have their datacenters knocked out by just this sort of thing. It requires an enormous amount of planning to manage a disaster of this magnatude, even with their limited roles. Because of this complexity, every customer is tested multiple times, most of the work they do during the year is testing. Every customer has a script to ensure everything comes up correctly. The war room comes on line days before hurricanes hit to begin preparation for those customers in the expected path. You can’t do any of this stuff ad-hoc, you need a plan, one that is tested and retested. The big questions here are… What was NOLA’s plan in the event of flood? Was it successfully executed? I find it difficult to believe that crowding tens of thousands of people in the Superdome without food, water or evacuation for days was part of any plan. I find it difficult to believe that a city wide evacuation with no support for a vast pedestrian population is part of any plan. One would think that we’d have improved planning for any future disasters, of course one would also think that 4 years after 9/11 we might have broken ground on a new building there… ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/24 "2005-09-03T19:05:57Z")
> [@](#): > > See, it’s much more easy to just whine and complain on a message board than to actually do something. As I told a certain other hand-wringing apologist in another thread, I have donated money, volunteered my professional services in emergency planning, mapping, and prevention, and also volunteered as physical labor on the Gulf Coast. I have not yet been called for service, but I imagine I will be mobilized in the next couple of weeks or so. In addition, I fully intend to become requalified as a first responder ASAP and maintain my qualifications indefinitely. To my regret, I let my certification lapse over the past few years. In short, take your holier-than-thou handwaving and sodomize yourself with it. While we’re at it, in the other thread, **duffer** asked me if “DU is down tonight.” I asked him what DU was, but he never answered me. So, uh, what the fuck is he talking about? ---
**Author:** ![markdiscordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@markdiscordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdiscordia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/25 "2005-09-03T19:11:09Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > It feels good, pretending that you know more about how to handle a disaster than POTUS/FEMA, or any of the other responders. “Pretending”? > [@](#): > > It’s deluded thinking, to be sure, and I can’t imagine it’s healthy to walk around with so much hate, but those who insist on pointing the finger aren’t worthy of being pitted. Ah, the “why are the President’s opponents so hateful/angry” bullshit again. Here’s a clue: because he let thousands of people die due to complete inability to run the emergency response agencies and the military, and because of everything else he’s done over the past 5 years. Coming from people who won elections based on calling civil libertarians traitors and rallying the homophobes, you’ve got to be living in an alternate universe to accuse anyone else of overreacting. Which, of course, you are. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/26 "2005-09-03T19:29:04Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > See, it’s much more easy to just whine and complain on a message board than to actually _do_ something. Oh yes. This needs some specific response. Among the “whiners” …[the mayor of Chicago](http://www.suntimes.com/output/hurricane/cst-nws-daley03.html) who is whining because he has offered trucks, ambulances, etc. and staff from Chicago to help and has been taken up on one fuel truck only. A mother of one of my patients (I’m a pediatrician) and her adult Emergency Medicine nurse daughter who have loaded up their car with medical supplies donated from offices like mine and are driving down from Chicago to offer up the daughter’s services who are whining beyond belief about the inadequacy of the governments response and about how they have always loved Bush “since he’s a prayer warrior like me but not anymore. This is shameful.” God bless the whiners. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/27 "2005-09-03T19:29:05Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > While we’re at it, in the other thread, **duffer** asked me if “DU is down tonight.” I asked him what DU was, but he never answered me. So, uh, what the fuck is he talking about? I presume he means Democratic Underground, which is apparently roughly the left’s equivalent to the right’s Free Republic. I never read either message board, though, so I could be almost entirely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/28 "2005-09-03T19:32:38Z")
Ah, thanks. Never been there, and anyone who has argued with me in the past over, say, the Iraq war, should know that I’m no left-winger. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/29 "2005-09-03T19:35:31Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Ah, thanks. Never been there, and anyone who has argued with me in the past over, say, the Iraq war, should know that I’m no left-winger. But…but…you don’t _understand_!! Anyone who criticizes any aspect of Bush’s presidency in any respect is always and invariably an unthinking knee-jerk anti-Bush liberal. Surely you aren’t so arrogant to think that you could be a counterexample, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/30 "2005-09-03T19:41:11Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > **Hentor** , having thought of various responses, I’ve settled on the short version: go fuck yourself. If you want to call it Bush fellating, be my guest, pinhead. I call it patience and observation. There will be plenty of time for blame casting down the road, but you can take the shortcut. That’s all well and good, but I’m delaying no intervention efforts by making my observations, and it takes no patience to review the existing record. We have a president who claims that nobody anticipated the levees breaking, which is patently untrue. We have a head of FEMA who didn’t know about the people in the Superdome until informed by the media, and who was himself fired from his last job managing some association of horse owners for incompetence. There are a hundred other factors that it takes no time to recognize as highly damning. The only reason knob-slobbers like yourself are calling for any patience is simply that you hate hearing the facts, and hope that they will, once again, go away. Guess what, fucknut? The truth hurts. Maybe you will be able to sweep it under the rug again, but I am going to do my damnest to make sure people who might not have the kool-aid cup in their hands hear it. This is the most incompetent administration we have had in my fucking lifetime, run on principles that are criminally negligent. This disaster is another example, and I want it stopped. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/31 "2005-09-03T19:57:28Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > After four days away from this board, I’m astounded at the sheer number of threads and posts criticising the hurricane Katrina response. While I’m sure that some posters have a relevant background in emergency response and incident command, the balance have pulled their opinions from where their heads reside. > \ > Folks directly impacted are frustrated, angry, and much more, and I’m sympathetic to their feelings. Heaping derision on responders/POTUS solves nothing. Volunteer or enlist-learn about what it takes to pull a response together for an incident of this magnitude, and until then, please shut up. Fascinating. At what point exactly are we free to evaluate the quality of disaster response, and to whom should we provide our credentials? As well, of course, a detailed listing of our individual efforts. Can’t leave those out of discussions. I understand your frustrations, **danceswithcats** , really do. Anger, blame-throwing, etc. don’t alleviate the mess. But IMO you post veers into the ether for a message board–and for real life, for that matter. People have a right, as well as an obligation, to evaluate how crucial governmental functions are performed. This is chatter about lousy tv, rude drivers or rude customers. A natural disaster devastated a major city. The nature and extent of disaster preparedness has been a very high-profile _civic_ issue ever since 9/11. I’d wager that any Doper involved in any sort of basic service field–information, communications, local government, health care, etc.–has experienced at least some type of disaster planning since then. Like it or not, the whole issue has gained widespread application. Heck, remember the emergency kits widely promoted for ordinary home use? Unfortunately, New Orleans getting clobbered showed that our preparations were pathetically inadequate. Period. That’s a legimate issue for debate and concern by anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/32 "2005-09-03T20:00:19Z")
Wait. Isn’t that all we ever hear? Wait and see what happens in Iraq before complaining about the incompetance. Wait to see if we were really wrong about WMDs. Wait and explore further before we investigate the CIA fuck ups, the outing of Plame, the various scandals. Wait, don’t criticize, it’s not time, blah blah blah… My question-when the fuck WILL it be time to criticize? When is enough enough? If this had been a terrorist attack, would we still think that Bush is keeping us safe? Fuck this shit. I’m sick of waiting, I’m sick of being told to wait and see before I can call a spade a spade. I don’t need time and patience to know bullshit when I see it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/33 "2005-09-03T21:14:08Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Thank you for reminding me of what promises the POTUS _runned_ on. I might have forgotted otherwise. Minor observation that the context of those remarks seems to be aimed at military or terrorist threats, but why deal with trifles such as those? :wally yourself. If you want to play the ignorant that is your prerogative, early in his presidency the Bush administration pointed our that a disaster like this was one of the priorities of homeland security, the context really applies to disasters like this one. [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/homeland/securityact.html](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/homeland/securityact.html) > [@](#): > > The Homeland Security Act > > … > > According to the president’s National Homeland Security Strategy published in July 2002, the new department’s main objectives are to guard the nation’s borders, prevent domestic terrorist attacks, create a national defense strategy, \*\*and reduce damage from natural disasters \*\* and terrorist acts. > > … > > Currently, numerous groups have developed disparate federal response plans; the EPR seeks to streamline the myriad plans into one “all-hazards” plan for the country. > > **This division also coordinates with state, local, and public safety organizations to develop a comprehensive national crisis management system to respond to terrorist attacks and natural catastrophes. In case of a national emergency, the EPR has authority to command federal response teams as they work with teams on the local and state levels.** > > According to Mr. Bush’s 2004 budget, the EPR division has roughly $6 billion with which to work. Approximately 5,300 employees are expected serve under the EPR. > [@wring](#): > > _runned on_??? \*\*wring \*\* noticed also that you are really an idiot, the president was supposed to be _currently_ working on those things, he had 4 years to prepare for this (If it had been a terror attack, it showed how unprepared we really are) Bush (and the local politicians) get at best, a C- in the effort. 9/11 supposedly “changed everything” sure it did, as history shows, people being “armchair managers” caused change to happen, AFAIK there was a huge cattle prod applied by the Black Caucus that speeded up the sluggish _ **response** _ of this administration, a larger cattle prod will have to be applied to the local planers and again to the administration later of course. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/34 "2005-09-04T06:05:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > My question-when the fuck WILL it be time to criticize? When is enough enough? When the apologists can reply, with a straight face, “Why are you bringing up old stuff?” “Now is not the time to criticize” is Rove-spin for “Dammit, give us more time to make up an excuse/run down the clock/find something else to distract you with.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/35 "2005-09-05T06:15:09Z")
When I first realized a week ago that a major storm was headed for NO, my first thought was “oh, shit, those poor people are screwed”. A few hours later, when I started considering the political implications, my first political thought was “Damn it, that bastard Bush lucked out again.” See, I just assumed that the federal disaster response would be adequate, maybe even excellent. I figured that after a couple of days the news would be full of stories of heroic rescues and people thanking God and vowing to rebuild. That’s how natural disasters are supposed play out in the United States. However bad the tragedy, the emergency response is swift, people pitch in to help, and we come through it. I figure that Bush would get a few choice photo ops and get a (possibly deserved) bump in the polls and in political terms the whole nightmare would be beneficial to the President, distracting attention from Cindy Sheehan and the Rove / Plame affair. That’s not what happened. Instead the days wore on, and NOTHING seemed to be happening. People were stilll drowning in their attics and rotting at the Convention Center. This ISN’T how natural disasters are supposed to play out in the United States. There was clearly a massive fuck-up in progress. People on the right act as though Bush is “damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t”. They say things like “no matter what he did, the Bush-haters would be criticizing him for it.” Well, no. If it seems like we criticize the President a lot, maybe its because there’s a lot to criticize. If the federal government had responded adequately to this crisis, you’d be hearing nary a peep from the “Bush-haters”. Politically, Katrina was a huge opportunity for Bush. If he had handled it well it would have concretely demonstrated the changes he has made since 9/11 have made the United States safer. Republicans could honestly have pointed to it as a vindication of a White House that has grown increasingly embattled over the last six months. That’s what I figured would happen. Despite my low opinion of the currently administration, I never thought they would fumble so badly on something so close to their core mission. (I was similarly surprised by the botched Iraq war. I thought the war was bad on principle. But I always assumed that however misguided it was, it would still be prosecuted effectively. You’d think I would learn.) So, no, it’s entirely appropriate that we pass judgement on our leaders. And appropriate that we do it quickly, while the memories of their actions are still fresh. Anything else is an abdication of our responsibilities as citizens. ---
**Author:** ![hermann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b487fb/32.png) [@hermann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hermann)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/36 "2005-09-05T15:28:04Z")
> [@](#): > > [http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plan...upplement1a.pdf](http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plan...upplement1a.pdf) > Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00 > > **’The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses,** government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating’ Yeah, there’s plenty of blame to go around. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/37 "2005-09-05T18:26:38Z")
**DancesWithCats** I’m very confused. I thought you would be much angrier than the average person. They can guess and conjecture at what could have been done better. You can make a list of things you _know_ could and should have been done. The firefighters, cops, national guard etc aren’t being given what they need to do their jobs. Some of the people in charge screwed up badly, and are continuing to screw up. I want them removed and competent people put in their place. Incompetent commanders continue to cost human lives. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/38 "2005-09-05T20:01:41Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **DancesWithCats** > > I’m very confused. I thought you would be much angrier than the average person. They can guess and conjecture at what could have been done better. You can make a list of things you _know_ could and should have been done. The firefighters, cops, national guard etc aren’t being given what they need to do their jobs. Some of the people in charge screwed up badly, and are continuing to screw up. I want them removed and competent people put in their place. Incompetent commanders continue to cost human lives. Come now. Haven’t the last several years sufficiently demonstrated that the (R) beside a name and a promise to lower taxes trump anything and everything? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/39 "2005-09-05T20:19:36Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **DancesWithCats** > I’m very confused. I thought you would be much angrier than the average person. Ah, the sweet innocence of naivete. Like a lot of other apologists, **DancesWithCats** works on the simple principle of IOKIYAAR. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875/40 "2005-09-05T21:24:51Z")
I take it, then, that one is supposed to wait for those who are dying for rescue to get on with it and die before one speaks out concerning the gross incompetence of the mayor, the governor, the head of FEMA, and the president. Echoes from Lake Fucinus to Lake Pontchartrain: morituri te salutant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-for-the-numerous-armchair-disaster-managers-skilled-at-bitching/319875.md?page=3)