# A Pitting of the good Christians of the American Family Association **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578 "2014-08-01T15:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/181 "2014-08-05T16:22:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Sometimes they’re called “illegal aliens” to drive home that “they’re not one of us”, perhaps to the point of being less than human. You do understand that the correct legal definition of a non-citizen, a person belonging or owing allegiance to another country or government, is “alien,” don’t you? 8 USC § 1101(a)(3): _The term “alien” means any person not a citizen or national of the United States._ “Illegal alien” suffers the same problem as “illegal:” the person is not illegal; what’s illegal is their presence and/or their entry into the United States. But “alien,” is the correct term. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/182 "2014-08-05T16:23:52Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Under the UN Convention relating to the Status of Refugees (CRSR) it is only after they have been determined not to be genuine refugees that they become “illegal” aliens. > > A refugee has the right to be free from penalties pertaining to the illegality of their entry to or presence within a country, if it can be shown that they acted in good faith- that is, if the **refugee believes** that there was ample cause for their illegal entry/presence, i.e. to escape threats upon their life or freedom, and if they swiftly declare their presence. > > This right is protected in Article 31: > "The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence. > > As has been said the use of the term illegal is designed to increase hatred/intolerance. Specifically, what makes these immigrants refugees? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/183 "2014-08-05T16:24:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m talking about the OP. Just saying that if you accuse Christians of being hypocrites, it helps if you aren’t being a hypocrite in the process. YMOV, because you agree with him politically. If you didn’t, you’d be making the same argument I am. So, you’re saying that the “Judge not” passage says that Christians shouldn’t be drawing any sort of distinctions between good and bad conduct where actual persons are involved? I think there’s a lot of room to argue how this passage applies to situations in public life, but I must admit I haven’t come across anyone saying that’s how to apply it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/184 "2014-08-05T16:37:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m talking about the OP. Just saying that if you accuse Christians of being hypocrites, it helps if you aren’t being a hypocrite in the process. YMOV, because you agree with him politically. If you didn’t, you’d be making the same argument I am. This “Judge not…” stuff? Does it not first apply to the Christians of the American Family Association? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/185 "2014-08-05T16:43:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Specifically, what makes these immigrants refugees? Y’know, some would say that children making a hazardous journey up the length of Mexico from other Central American countries without adult guidance, should be given the benefit of the doubt on this point. Maybe some of these kids were from reasonably safe places, and were just out on an extended joyride. And if so, they should certainly be returned home if it is found that that is the case. But absent such knowledge, ISTM that the Christian approach would be to err on the side of mercy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/186 "2014-08-05T16:46:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What, specifically, are these immigrants fleeing? You could find out easily enough. Why haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/187 "2014-08-05T16:48:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This “Judge not…” stuff? Does it not first apply to the Christians of the American Family Association? I think **John Mace** has a valid underlying point that if I claim to be some sort of Christian (which I do), I should be heeding such guidance, if applicable, whether or not the AFA does. Christianity doesn’t urge being good only if the other guy also is good. The point where I must disagree with him is what this Scripture passage means in this context. I think it makes no sense to say it means, “never point out that someone has done something wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/188 "2014-08-05T16:53:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This “Judge not…” stuff? Does it not first apply to the Christians of the American Family Association? I’ve posted several times above with specific examples designed to illustrate the following general point: _“Christian” does not imply that all those who identify as Christian agree on too many things, either secular or religious._. Mormons consider themselves Christian, in that they believe in Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God, who died and was raised from the dead. But they believe that Jesus visited a group of Jewish settlers in America shortly after His resurrection, but before His assent into Heaven, and the rest of Christiandom does not credit this belief. Prior to 1890, Mormons believed in plural marriage, a concept the rest of Christianity in the West did not accept. And to this day, fundamentalist Mormons reject the disavowal of plural marriage. So is plural marriage an affront to “Christianity,” or not? The basic point is: apart from some VERY basic tenets, such as Christ’s divinity, death, and resurrection, there is no body of belief that can uncontroversially be called “Christian.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/189 "2014-08-05T16:54:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You could find out easily enough. Why haven’t you? I have. The immigrants are fleeing poverty and general poor living conditions, and are seeking residency in the United States out of a mistaken understanding of the amnesty provisions available to certain minors. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/190 "2014-08-05T17:29:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have. The immigrants are fleeing poverty and general poor living conditions, and are seeking residency in the United States out of a mistaken understanding of the amnesty provisions available to certain minors. You should read more. There is “poverty and general poor living conditions” across Latin America, and yet this surge is coming from three particular countries–Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras–all of which have had "“poverty and general poor living conditions” for a long time. What has changed is the level of organized violence directed at children by both criminal gangs and the state in combating the gangs. I suggest you start [here](http://www.unhcrwashington.org/sites/default/files/UAC_UNHCR_Children%20on%20the%20Run_Full%20Report.pdf). A majority of these kids are fleeing violence, not poverty. And while that is not enough to make them legally refugees (though it is in many cases), your description is factually wrong. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/191 "2014-08-05T17:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > …general poor living conditions… Oh, so, “substandard”, then? C-minus, not quite up to snuff? You think this is the motivation that moves them to risk their children’s lives, then? You’ve come to the conclusion, after an exhaustive analysis of the facts, that its mostly about them being utterly uncaring people who don’t really give a fuck what happens to their children? Well, they’re not like us, they don’t place the same value on human life. Or maybe they do, but they just don’t happen to like their kids very much. (For us, of course, you get them past their third birthday, they become more or less bearable.) So, actually, they just suck at parenting skills. Not our problem! Really, a lot like sending them off to summer camp, except for the dying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/192 "2014-08-05T17:55:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You should read more. There is “poverty and general poor living conditions” across Latin America, and yet this surge is coming from three particular countries–Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras–all of which have had "“poverty and general poor living conditions” for a long time. What has changed is the level of organized violence directed at children by both criminal gangs and the state in combating the gangs. > > I suggest you start [here](http://www.unhcrwashington.org/sites/default/files/UAC_UNHCR_Children%20on%20the%20Run_Full%20Report.pdf). > > A majority of these kids are fleeing violence, not poverty. And while that is not enough to make them legally refugees (though it is in many cases), your description is factually wrong. I certainly think it’s fair to say these kids or fleeing violence more than poverty, or that their parents are reacting more to violence than to poverty, since many of these kids probably are just doing what their parents are telling them to do. But… there has to be more to it than that since they are fleeing to the US instead of to any number of countries in Central or South America where they could more easily blend/integrate in to the existing population. So they are fleeing violence, but coming specifically to the US. And apparently, in many cases, purposely turning themselves in to authorities as soon as they cross the border. Clearly someone back home is thinking: _My kid will have a better life in the US_ not so much: _My kid will have a better life if he leaves this country._ Fleeing violence, but looking for economic opportunity as well. As much as I think we must buck up and take care of these kids, we need to find a way to stop (or at least reduce as much as possible) more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/193 "2014-08-05T18:04:00Z")
Undoubtedly these kids and their parents have complex motivations. And undoubtedly some of their motivation is based on the attractiveness of the U.S. as a place to live. But your analysis here is equally applicable to every refugee, isn’t it? It is always the case that any given refugee in America has come to America and not somewhere else–just as for Europe’s Jews or those fleeing Iraq. Indeed, we don’t even know if this particular wave of refugees who have landed in America are a majority of those who had fled. How many are living in Costa Rica or the safer parts of Mexico? If there are many kids there, too, does that change your analysis of the problem? [And here I’m using “refugee” in the colloquial and international law sense, since American law defines the term rather more narrowly and it is likely that only a minority of these kids meets that definition.] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/194 "2014-08-05T18:12:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You should read more. There is “poverty and general poor living conditions” across Latin America, and yet this surge is coming from three particular countries–Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras–all of which have had "“poverty and general poor living conditions” for a long time. What has changed is the level of organized violence directed at children by both criminal gangs and the state in combating the gangs. > > I suggest you start [here](http://www.unhcrwashington.org/sites/default/files/UAC_UNHCR_Children%20on%20the%20Run_Full%20Report.pdf). > > A majority of these kids are fleeing violence, not poverty. And while that is not enough to make them legally refugees (though it is in many cases), your description is factually wrong. From post 110: > [@](#): > > In late May, the U.S. Border Patrol interviewed unaccompanied children (UAC) and migrant families apprehended in the Rio Grande Valley. Of the 230 total migrants interviewed, 219 cited the primary reason for migrating to the United States was the perception of U.S. immigration laws granting free passes or permisos to UAC and adult female OTMs traveling with minors. Migrants indicated that knowledge of permisos was widespread across Central America due to word of mouth, local, and international media messaging prompting many to depart for the United States within 30 days of becoming aware of these perceived benefits, according to the same reporting. > > U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) also notes that a large number of migrants interviewed claimed family members in the United States encouraged their travel because the U.S. government would cease issuing permisos after June 2014. Migrants cited Univision, Primer Impacto, Al Rojo Vivo and several Honduran television news outlets for helping shape their perception of U.S. immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/195 "2014-08-05T18:14:27Z")
One survey–conducted by border patrol officers!–supports your view so you ignore all the conflicting evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/196 "2014-08-05T18:22:09Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > One survey–conducted by border patrol officers!–supports your view so you ignore all the conflicting evidence? “All?” No. I also watch Univision. Primer Impacto, El Gordo y la Flaca, ¡Despierta América! have all carried inaccurate stories about the permisos consistent with the quote above. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/197 "2014-08-05T18:34:26Z")
I also believe that there are inaccurate stories out there about U.S. immigration policy. But the relevant question is what is motivating these children to flee. Your claim is that they are just ordinary immigrants, “fleeing poverty and general poor living conditions.” The evidence that runs contrary to your claim is: the fact that the surge is from three particular countries; the explosion in asylum applications in other countries like Mexico and Costa Rica; and the survey data for those surveys not reported by Breitbart News as the result of interrogations performed by border patrol agents. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/198 "2014-08-05T18:43:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > From post 110: Maybe I’m a little dense, but could you spell out the contradiction for me? Particularly, if you could link to the _actual question that was asked_, so we know what the answers mean, it would be helpful. (I don’t see that in your link at post 110.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/199 "2014-08-05T18:47:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I also believe that there are inaccurate stories out there about U.S. immigration policy. > > But the relevant question is what is motivating these children to flee. Your claim is that they are just ordinary immigrants, “fleeing poverty and general poor living conditions.” More specifically, while I don’t rule out that some may be gay and fleeing the oppressive treatment meted out to gays in Central America, and some may be political pariahs and fleeing persecution oon that account, I claim that the biggest single factor is poverty and its resulting conditions. > [@](#): > > The evidence that runs contrary to your claim is: the fact that the surge is from three particular countries; the explosion in asylum applications in other countries like Mexico and Costa Rica; and the survey data for those surveys not reported by Breitbart News as the result of interrogations performed by border patrol agents. From your cite: > [@](#): > > Many unaccompanied and separated children, including those interviewed for this > study, arrive in the context of “mixed migration” movements, which include both > individuals in need of international protection and migrants without international > protection needs. > . > . > . > UNHCR found that the large majority of children interviewed from all four of these countries provided information that clearly indicates they may well be in need of international protection. The responses of these children were complex and multifaceted and in many cases included both protection-related and non-protection-related concerns. And finally, from you: > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > [And here I’m using “refugee” in the colloquial and international law sense, since American law defines the term rather more narrowly and **it is likely that only a minority of these kids meets that definition.**] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/200 "2014-08-05T18:50:05Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Maybe I’m a little dense, but could you spell out the contradiction for me? > > Particularly, if you could link to the _actual question that was asked_, so we know what the answers mean, it would be helpful. (I don’t see that in your link at post 110.) The immediate question: what’s the primary motivation of this cohort of immigrants? The overarching question: are they refugees under US law? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578.md?page=11)