# A Pitting of the good Christians of the American Family Association **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578 "2014-08-01T15:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/201 "2014-08-05T18:52:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I claim that the biggest single factor is poverty and its resulting conditions. That’s right. And you apparently have no response to the evidence that clearly contradicts that claim. Instead, so far, you’ve accurately cited a portion of a survey that contradicts your narrative and then quibbled with the legal definition of a refugee. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/202 "2014-08-05T19:14:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That’s right. And you apparently have no response to the evidence that clearly contradicts that claim. Instead, so far, you’ve accurately cited a portion of a survey that contradicts your narrative and then quibbled with the legal definition of a refugee. I have as much response as you did to evidence that clearly contradicted your claim. This report was compiled by a UN commission on refugees? And it found a pressing need to protect a population of refugees. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/203 "2014-08-05T19:19:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have as much response as you did to evidence that clearly contradicted your claim. No, you don’t. I’ve given you multiple pieces of evidence supporting a survey which disclosed its methodology at length. You’ve not responded to the survey or the evidence. For the first time you now say that you think the UN commission on refugees has an interest in inflating the refugee angle of the crisis. Fine, we can leave to others to decide which is more credible: an allegedly leaked and redacted “survey” performed by border patrol agents and disclosed by Breitbart News, or a thoroughly documented social science survey performed by a UN agency. But dueling surveys aside, you are still ignoring the other evidence contradicting your claim. Does it need to be repeated? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/204 "2014-08-05T19:29:55Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > No, you don’t. I’ve given you multiple pieces of evidence supporting a survey which disclosed its methodology at length. You’ve not responded to the survey or the evidence. > > For the first time you now say that you think the UN commission on refugees has an interest in inflating the refugee angle of the crisis. Fine, we can leave to others to decide which is more credible: an allegedly leaked and redacted “survey” performed by border patrol agents and disclosed by Breitbart News, or a thoroughly documented social science survey performed by a UN agency. > > But dueling surveys aside, you are still ignoring the other evidence contradicting your claim. Does it need to be repeated? A post # will do fine. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/205 "2014-08-05T19:36:17Z")
Post 197. > [@](#): > > The evidence that runs contrary to your claim is: the fact that the surge is from three particular countries; the explosion in asylum applications in other countries like Mexico and Costa Rica; and the survey data for those surveys not reported by Breitbart News as the result of interrogations performed by border patrol agents. You have now addressed the third part by saying you trust Breitbart’s reporting of a supposedly leaked “survey” over a proper survey performed by a UN agency because you think the UN has an agenda. What you have not addressed is why, if this is about permisos, the surge has predominately been from three countries. Nor have you addressed why there has been a similar surge in people fleeing those countries to other nations in Latin America. Did they also think that Nicaragua and Costa Rica were offering amnesty? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/206 "2014-08-05T19:53:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The immediate question: what’s the primary motivation of this cohort of immigrants? That’s what each immigrant who was questioned for this survey was asked? That would be a most peculiar question. No, really. Saying “the results of this survey were thus and so” isn’t verifiable unless we know about the survey. You don’t know what a respondent’s answers meant without knowing the question the respondent was asked. (And sometimes not even then, which is why you test survey questions with focus groups and stuff, but I digress. I’m willing to take the questions at face value, if I can see them.) And the questions are important. If someone asked me why my wife and I moved out of Shithole, FK, awhile back, I’d probably say, “because we got a great job offer up in Maryland.” But they’d need to probe about whether I’d been predisposed to find a way out of Shithole, or whether I liked Shithole but we couldn’t resist the job opportunity - and if the former, then what was the primary reason we’d wanted to leave? Because that’s the real question here. The primary reason we left Shithole was because we finally _could_, because there was somewhere/something to go _to_. But the questions the kids need to be asked are the analogous ones to the probing questions I give in the previous paragraph: was their Shithole an OK place, but the USA looked better, or was it a terrible place that they felt trapped in, and if so, what were the primary aspects of it that made them want to leave so badly? What the El Paso Intelligence Center, whatever the fuck that is, has in the visible part of that report, is garbage in terms of supporting your point. It doesn’t tell you anything. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/207 "2014-08-05T22:27:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Post 197. > > You have now addressed the third part by saying you trust Breitbart’s reporting of a supposedly leaked “survey” over a proper survey performed by a UN agency because you think the UN has an agenda. > > What you have not addressed is why, if this is about permisos, the surge has predominately been from three countries. Nor have you addressed why there has been a similar surge in people fleeing those countries to other nations in Latin America. > > Did they also think that Nicaragua and Costa Rica were offering amnesty? No, but Costa Rica is relatively stable and as a result offers more economic opportunity than El Salvador. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/208 "2014-08-06T00:06:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, but Costa Rica is relatively stable and as a result offers more economic opportunity than El Salvador. So what? That does absolutely nothing to bolster your argument. The question is what accounts for this sudden surge in children crossing the Mexico border. You say that what’s changed is misinformation about U.S. policy. But that theory fails to make sense of much of the data, including the fact that this surge is coming from three particular countries which are not the poorest of the poor; the swelling of asylum-seekers in other adjacent countries; and the scientific survey data suggesting that the primary motivation is escape from violence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/209 "2014-08-06T00:25:20Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So what? That does absolutely nothing to bolster your argument. > > The question is what accounts for this sudden surge in children crossing the Mexico border. You say that what’s changed is misinformation about U.S. policy. But that theory fails to make sense of much of the data, including the fact that this surge is coming from three particular countries which are not the poorest of the poor; the swelling of asylum-seekers in other adjacent countries; and the scientific survey data suggesting that the primary motivation is escape from violence. Indeed, and here is more from what the experts reported on the matter in the Diane Rhem show that I quoted early (the same one that reported why it is a lie what NumbersUSA and the AFA said about the “border crisis” that in reality is a humanitarian one) > [@](#): > > MEACHAM > 10:55:30 > Sure. I mean, look, what’s happening now is definitely a symptom of greater issues happening in the region and in the U.S. But what’s interesting on the drug side is that in the United States, you’ve had legalization movements or initiatives all over, most recently the one in Colorado. And definitely you have different attitudes sort of showing themselves and expressing themselves or materializing themselves in policy. The region is experimenting with some of those issues. In Uruguay, they’ve legalized marijuana. > > And in Central America, they’re really starting to deal with this and question if the policies that they’ve had in the past are actually adequate or able to deal with some of the issues that contribute to the violence and the crime. But the United States is put into a pretty funny place because, on the one hand, we promote a zero-tolerance policy around the world and in Central America and in South America, and here in the U.S. we’re starting to legalize marijuana in different places. So we’re definitely sort of at a point, as far as policies is concerned, where we’re going to have to sort of develop a more consistent approach to these issues. > > These issues, as we well know, have a fallout that has to do with the children and the violence and the crime involved as well. > > PAGE > 10:56:52 > Marc Rosenblum. > > ROSENBLUM > 10:56:53 > \*\*Two quick points on this. General Kelly, the head of Southcom for the U.S. military, estimates that 80 percent of the violence in Central America is directly related to U.S. drug imports. And the other point is that, since 2001, we’ve deported 150,000 convicted criminals to Central America. \*\* The hypocrisy of the nativists has many layers and the ignorance of many republicans is helping them. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/210 "2014-08-06T01:31:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The immediate question: what’s the primary motivation of this cohort of immigrants? > > The overarching question: are they refugees under US law? It’s not US law you should be concerned with but the UN Charter that both our countries have signed up for. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/211 "2014-08-06T02:14:51Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > It’s not US law you should be concerned with but the UN Charter that both our countries have signed up for. What relevance does the UN Charter have to this situation? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/212 "2014-08-06T03:58:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What relevance does the UN Charter have to this situation? A lot, the USA has signed it and it carries a definition of what a refugee is. It trumps US state laws and even federal ones. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/213 "2014-08-06T04:17:24Z")
**Bricker** , am I misunderstanding you, or are you suggesting that “Why did you come to America?” and “Why did you leave your home country?” are the same question? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/214 "2014-08-06T05:43:46Z")
My vacation is over; I have to go back to work. This turned into a runaway thread, and I’m sorry I haven’t been able to keep up. Given another couple days, maybe I will. The smart people of the board ought to track down for all of us how Reagan supported the crackdown on the democratic agitators in the region, to the point of death squads, and how that contributes to the current situation. I hope others will help me out in tracing the effects of free trade agreements under Clinton, like the dumping of cheap corn from our country into the region, resulting in ordinary farmers being driven out of business, off their land and into poverty, resulting in the conditions that drive the mass migration/immigration we see today. I think the US caused much of the turmoil that is driving immigration from Honduras, Guatamala, etc. today. But vacation is over; I have to work for a living, and thank goodness I have the opportunity to do so. But it means I can’t track down every lead, I have a bunch of other plates besides even work that I have to keep spinning. I’ll try to keep up, but can’t do the blow-by-blow just now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/215 "2014-08-06T11:48:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What relevance does the UN Charter have to this situation? > [@sisu](#): > > A lot, the USA has signed it and it carries a definition of what a refugee is. It trumps US state laws and even federal ones. Are you thinking of some other UN convention or protocol? I was not aware that the UN Charter defined a refugee. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/216 "2014-08-06T13:05:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you thinking of some other UN convention or protocol? I was not aware that the UN Charter defined a refugee. Is there a reason for this nitpick? I’m starting from next to zero in my knowledge of international protocols relating to refugees. Yet in ten seconds, I was able to type “un convention on refugees” into Google, and find the [1951 Refugee Convention and 1967 Protocol](http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49da0e466.html). Just like that. And yes, [it defines refugees](http://www.unhcr.org/4ec262df9.html). ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/217 "2014-08-06T13:45:09Z")
The point about the UN Charter trumping US law is moot, since US law defines refugee consistently with the 1951 Protocol’s definition. The issue with the definition of “refugee” concerns other sources of international law, including the Cartagena Declaration on Refugees which expands the definition to include those fleeing generalized violence. The Cartagena declaration is not a treaty. At most it would be a piece of evidence in proving customary international law, which would not trump a federal statute. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/218 "2014-08-06T14:28:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, perhaps. As a Roman Catholic, of course, I hold that Scripture and Holy Tradition are of equal import, and that Jesus nominated Peter to lead His church on Earth, with the full authority to do so. (“Whatever you bind on Earth…”) > > So I don’t declare the Bible as an absolute and infallible direction in life. > > Do these people? In John 10 Jesus calls Scripture :YOUR LAW,Not God’s. Humans decided what was of God and what was not, so it is just a matter of belief. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/219 "2014-08-06T14:41:32Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Is there a reason for this nitpick? I’m starting from next to zero in my knowledge of international protocols relating to refugees. Yet in ten seconds, I was able to type “un convention on refugees” into Google, and find the [1951 Refugee Convention and 1967 Protocol](http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49da0e466.html). Just like that. > > And yes, [it defines refugees](http://www.unhcr.org/4ec262df9.html). Sure. And that definition is what’s found in US law. So the reason for my question was that **sisu** said: > [@sisu](#): > > A lot, the USA has signed it and it carries a definition of what a refugee is. It trumps US state laws and even federal ones. I’m trying to discover what definition of refugee he’s using. The “UN Charter” didn’t seem likely. The 1967 Protocol was generally adopted by the United States and enshrined into federal law, so it seems weird to say it “trumps” federal law when they are identical. Do you consider the definition of “refugee” to be a nitpick? I don’t – there are several sources which expand the definition to include flight from “…generalized violence, foreign aggression, internal conflicts, massive violation of human rights or other circumstances which have seriously disturbed public order.” But the U.S. is not a signatory to any such definition, nor is it a norm of international law. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/220 "2014-08-06T15:54:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The point about the UN Charter trumping US law is moot, since US law defines refugee consistently with the 1951 Protocol’s definition. > > The issue with the definition of “refugee” concerns other sources of international law, including the Cartagena Declaration on Refugees which expands the definition to include those fleeing generalized violence. The Cartagena declaration is not a treaty. At most it would be a piece of evidence in proving customary international law, which would not trump a federal statute. Do you think these kids qualify for refugee status. My gut says “yes”, but that’s not a good way to interpret the law, and I’m not at all familiar with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578.md?page=12)