# A Pitting of the good Christians of the American Family Association **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578 "2014-08-01T15:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/101 "2014-08-04T18:08:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > P.S. Don’t ever use the word [“illegal”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17606272&postcount=79) as a noun again; it indicates poor breeding, and a willingness to suggest that some people are less human than others. How about “illegal immigrant?” I ask because I have noticed – from the media 🙂 – an effort to replace “illegal immigrant” with “undocumented immigrant,” or “undocumented alien.” This move seems to me to be a conscious effort to minimize the aspect of law-breaking associated with the act of illegal entry into the country. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/102 "2014-08-04T18:41:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nope. I, as an individual, will give you the shirt off my back, but I will not force my neighbor to give the shirt off his back. That is my neighbor’s decision to make. Standard-issue libertarian crapola. It’s simply more efficient to help people by pooling our resources in the form of taxation and spending it to improve the lot of our fellow man than it is to wait for individuals to step forward. Why do we shy away from the term “illegal immigrant”? Because they’re people and deserve to be treated with dignity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/103 "2014-08-04T18:44:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Standard-issue libertarian crapola. It’s simply more efficient to help people by pooling our resources in the form of taxation and spending it to improve the lot of our fellow man than it is to wait for individuals to step forward. > > Why do we shy away from the term “illegal immigrant”? Because they’re people and deserve to be treated with dignity. All criminals are people. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/104 "2014-08-04T18:46:16Z")
8 year olds running away from gang violence in their home countries are not criminals. Righties love the term “illegal immigrants” because it’s dehumanizing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/105 "2014-08-04T18:55:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > All criminals are people. Not all children fleeing across borders are criminals. O.k. Maybe, _legally_. they may be. Is the legal definition the first thing that springs to mind when you think of children fleeing across a border to safety, **Bricker**? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/106 "2014-08-04T18:57:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As I think I mentioned above, their tax-exempt status is not based on a religious conviction. If not “religious conviction” (as measured by the distance between professed and actual standards), what, then, is the basis for distinguishing a legitimate religious organization from a sham operation set up to obtain a fraudulent tax exemption? ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/107 "2014-08-04T19:01:13Z")
Turning away children in need is abhorrent. Turning away children despite being a Christian is apparently easy to weasel through, but I hope turning away children BECAUSE of being a Christian is never going to be right. I’m glad my government is taking care of them and trying to find them good homes, including sending them back to their countries if that’s what is best for them, and not drowning them like unwanted kittens in the Rio Grande. The Catholic stance on “illegal” immigration is not the same as Bricker’s. [Surprise, surprise](http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/churchteachingonimmigrationreform.cfm). Go ahead, find some more hairs to split. As for the AFA, [they’re nothing but pharisees](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=CEV), but it’s up to God to condemn them, not us. /another Christian perspective //maybe not right, but another ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/108 "2014-08-04T19:04:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You want the government to decide if a particular position is Christian. This cannot be avoided, so long as the government insists on doling out particular privileges. Once they do that, as I noted in my previous comment, they must necessarily determine who is following a genuine religious conviction and who is attending the church of “I don’t wanna pay taxes” or (formerly) “I’d rather not go to Vietnam”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/109 "2014-08-04T19:12:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not all children fleeing across borders are criminals. > > O.k. Maybe, _legally_. they may be. Is the legal definition the first thing that springs to mind when you think of children fleeing across a border to safety, **Bricker**? I’m staring at this post, trying to discern the operation of a mind keen enough to suggest that whether or not a person is a criminal depends upon something beyond “legality.” > [@](#): > > Not all children fleeing across borders are criminals. > > O.k. Maybe, _legally_. they may be. Yup, that’s what you said. And perhaps you could have even made a case for defending the apparently outrageous claim, pointing out that some children may lack the requisite intent to break laws, and some may be able to claim a defense of necessity. Those defenses are part of the legal framework, though, and so I guess you wanted to avoid them to promote your larger, grander concept, that maybe, “legally” speaking, a criminal might just possibly, if you squint, be a person who breaks the law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/110 "2014-08-04T19:17:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > 8 year olds running away from gang violence in their home countries are not criminals. Righties love the term “illegal immigrants” because it’s dehumanizing. > **[(U) Misperceptions of U.S. Policy Key Driver in Central American Migrant Surge...](https://www.scribd.com/document/233856565/Leaked-EPIC-Document)** > > The document discusses the recent surge of Central American children and migrants to the US-Mexico border. It finds that the surge is primarily driven by misperceptions among migrants about recent US immigration policies, fueled by human smugglers... > [@](#): > > In late May, the U.S. Border Patrol interviewed unaccompanied children (UAC) and migrant families apprehended in the Rio Grande Valley. Of the 230 total migrants interviewed, 219 cited the primary reason for migrating to the United States was the perception of U.S. immigration laws granting free passes or permisos to UAC and adult female OTMs traveling with minors. Migrants indicated that knowledge of permisos was widespread across Central America due to word of mouth, local, and international media messaging prompting many to depart for the United States within 30 days of becoming aware of these perceived benefits, according to the same reporting. > > U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) also notes that a large number of migrants interviewed claimed family members in the United States encouraged their travel because the U.S. government would cease issuing permisos after June 2014. Migrants cited Univision, Primer Impacto, Al Rojo Vivo and several Honduran television news outlets for helping shape their perception of U.S. immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/111 "2014-08-04T19:21:26Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > This cannot be avoided, so long as the government insists on doling out particular privileges. Once they do that, as I noted in my previous comment, they must necessarily determine who is following a genuine religious conviction and who is attending the church of “I don’t wanna pay taxes” or (formerly) “I’d rather not go to Vietnam”. The government is perfectly able to determine whether a particular claimant is sincere – that is, if they are telling the truth about what they believe. This is not the same as determining if their belief is legitimate Christianity, since the government is generally forbidden from expressing an opinion on the accuracy of a religious matter of faith. Do you see the distinction? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/112 "2014-08-04T19:30:22Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > The Catholic stance on “illegal” immigration is not the same as Bricker’s. [Surprise, surprise](http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/churchteachingonimmigrationreform.cfm). > > Go ahead, find some more hairs to split. That’s amusing. Frank sez: > [@Frank](#): > > No, you don’t suggest it. You support it in every way fathomable. Every aspect of your political arguments is based on your religious beliefs. Why don’t you two fight it out, and I’ll debate the winner? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/113 "2014-08-04T19:33:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m staring at this post, trying to discern the operation of a mind keen enough to suggest that whether or not a person is a criminal depends upon something beyond “legality.” > > Yup, that’s what you said. > > And perhaps you could have even made a case for defending the apparently outrageous claim, pointing out that some children may lack the requisite intent to break laws, and some may be able to claim a defense of necessity. Those defenses are part of the legal framework, though, and so I guess you wanted to avoid them to promote your larger, grander concept, that maybe, “legally” speaking, a criminal might just possibly, if you squint, be a person who breaks the law. This post, like most of what you have posted in this thread, is just crap meant to divert people away from the main issues. It all boils down which problem you see: 1. Are these children that should be helped, or 2. Are these “illegals” that should be stopped? What you don’t seem to comprehend is the utter amazement some of us have that a so-called Christian organization can write such a letter that shows not a hint of compassion, charity, understanding or compromise. No alternate solutions or charities are suggested. They have dismissed entirely problem #1 and have decided to focus entirely on problem #2. Yeah, **Bricker**. you are legally correct, and in a court of law you would be ethically correct. Whoopty fucking shit. Those are still children fleeing for safety across the border, and they need our help. the AFA be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/114 "2014-08-04T19:43:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This post, like most of what you have posted in this thread, is just crap meant to divert people away from the main issues. It all boils down which problem you see: > > 1. Are these children that should be helped, or > 2. Are these “illegals” that should be stopped? > > What you don’t seem to comprehend is the utter amazement some of us have that a so-called Christian organization can write such a letter that shows not a hint of compassion, charity, understanding or compromise. No alternate solutions or charities are suggested. They have dismissed entirely problem #1 and have decided to focus entirely on problem #2. > Yeah, **Bricker**. you are legally correct, and in a court of law you would be ethically correct. Whoopty fucking shit. Those are still children fleeing for safety across the border, and they need our help. the AFA be damned. Well, it’s obvious I don’t share a great deal of common ground with the AFA, although we both identify as Christians. I absolutely agree that we cannot simply abandon these children to war, disease, or famine, even though their presence here is the result of a deliberate misinformation campaign. But while this is my view as a voting citizen and as a Catholic, I don’t believe that the broad range of beliefs and practices that constitute “Christianity” can be fairly said to compel that result. So I don’t agree that a person, or an organization, cannot hold both a self-identification as Christian and a belief that these children should be unceremoniously returned to their native lands. It’s not a flavor of Christianity I’d personally find compelling, but it’s by no means impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/115 "2014-08-04T19:49:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, it’s obvious I don’t share a great deal of common ground with the AFA, although we both identify as Christians. I absolutely agree that we cannot simply abandon these children to war, disease, or famine, even though their presence here is the result of a deliberate misinformation campaign. > > But while this is my view as a voting citizen and as a Catholic, I don’t believe that the broad range of beliefs and practices that constitute “Christianity” can be fairly said to compel that result. > > So I don’t agree that a person, or an organization, cannot hold both a self-identification as Christian and a belief that these children should be unceremoniously returned to their native lands. It’s not a flavor of Christianity I’d personally find compelling, but it’s by no means impossible. No, it’s not impossible…but show you’re human and flip a bird in the right direction-they don’t need lawyers, they need more people getting pissed at them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/116 "2014-08-04T19:57:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, it’s not impossible…but show you’re human and flip a bird in the right direction-they don’t need lawyers, they need more people getting pissed at them. On a board that supposedly has some interest in fighting ignorance, you seem to be urging me to overlook the spurious claims about AFA somehow violating core tenets of Christianity – an expression of ignorance – and instead simply join in their general condemnation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/117 "2014-08-04T20:09:31Z")
Sometimes the correct response does not require prolonged inspection or precise categorization. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/118 "2014-08-04T20:10:26Z")
That was already done by **Try2B Comprehensive** back on the first page. **Bricker** said it didn’t apply to HIM because he’s Catholic and special and doesn’t solely believe the Bible. However, the AFA is Protestant, and states that the Bible is infallible. So **Bricker** has a thread all about him and his fun playing technicalities for his own amusement but none of that has anything to do with the AFA’s actions being against their stated beliefs. However, hypocrisy is everywhere, so maybe he’s just being existential about “Christianity.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/119 "2014-08-04T20:12:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sometimes the correct response does not require prolonged inspection or precise categorization. The correct response always requires accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/120 "2014-08-04T20:15:35Z")
I’ve seen people of very limited intellectual capacity behave in a kindly and generous fashion. And even more frequently, I’ve witnessed people of exceptional intellectual gifts whore out that intellect to support inhumane and repugnant opinions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578.md?page=7)