# A Pitting of the good Christians of the American Family Association **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578 "2014-08-01T15:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/121 "2014-08-04T20:18:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On a board that supposedly has some interest in fighting ignorance, you seem to be urging me to overlook the spurious claims about AFA somehow violating core tenets of Christianity – an expression of ignorance – and instead simply join in their general condemnation. Perhaps because, instead of looking through the posts for religious terms to nitpick and legal terms to hash through, I just read the OP and saw a self-proclaimed Christian organization’s soulless political screed and I got pissed that, of the two sides being maligned, the refugee children and the AFA, you think the ones that most need defending from being maligned are the ones with money and power. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/122 "2014-08-04T20:22:35Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > That was already done by **Try2B Comprehensive** back on the first page. > > **Bricker** said it didn’t apply to HIM because he’s Catholic and special and doesn’t solely believe the Bible. However, the AFA is Protestant, and states that the Bible is infallible. Yes, they do believe that the Bible is infallible. But even with that assumption, two readers holding that assumption can certainly decide which of two sections to highlight as guidance. I gave a number of examples of this above. For example again, the Bible is infallible (say they) but that doesn’t compel a conclusion that the United States must accept these immigrants. Romans 13: Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. The governing authorities clearly establish the conduct here as illegal. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/123 "2014-08-04T20:24:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Got it. Your hope is that the media would report on the positions taken, and contrast those positions with Christian doctrine to publicly highlight the inconsistency? Well, I expect that good reporting would either _reveal_ inconsistency, or publicly highlight the Escherian pathways the AFA would need to take in order to achieve consistency. > [@Bricker](#): > > How about “illegal immigrant?” I can’t really complain about finding that in a post, and you won’t find me doing so. > [@Bricker](#): > > I ask because I have noticed – from the media 🙂 – an effort to replace “illegal immigrant” with “undocumented immigrant,” or “undocumented alien.” > > This move seems to me to be a conscious effort to minimize the aspect of law-breaking associated with the act of illegal entry into the country. Perhaps it does seem that way to you. Personally, I’ve noticed a bit of a tug-of-war on the terminology issue ever since the Seventies. Never went to journalism school; don’t care to speculate on the motivations of the folks who were writing the style manuals. You may be on to something, though. Whoever chose which letters to the editor were going to get published managed to always select the ones that sounded the most mean-spirited in their protests of the usage. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/124 "2014-08-04T20:26:47Z")
The heartbreak here is that there is no solution. My first instinct is to welcome them with open arms and do whatever we can for them. But that will mean that the desperate moms and dads back home will be more inclined to take such a wretched gamble. And how many of them make it, and how many fall into the hands of some of the most vile and ruthless criminals in the world? If only there were a way to take them in and yet somehow leave the people back home with the impression that we turned the children right around and sent them all back. Which would likely mean that their relatives would assume that they never made it, even though they did. The horror. The horror. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/125 "2014-08-04T20:27:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’ve seen people of very limited intellectual capacity behave in a kindly and generous fashion. And even more frequently, I’ve witnessed people of exceptional intellectual gifts whore out that intellect to support inhumane and repugnant opinions. Fascinating. Now returning to the issue of accuracy, have you seen people using inaccurate claims in service of their kindly and generous impulses? Have you corrected the factual claims? Have you any particular interest in fighting ignorance? Or would you just prefer to fight the ignorance offered up in support of goals you disfavor? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/126 "2014-08-04T20:27:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Standard-issue libertarian crapola. It’s simply more efficient to help people by pooling our resources in the form of taxation and spending it to improve the lot of our fellow man than it is to wait for individuals to step forward. Let’s leave libertarians out of this. The “I” in that quote was a stand-in for “Christian”, although I am not a Christian, myself. IOW, there is nothing “Christian” about forcing other people to adhere to Christian beliefs. You do agree with that, don’t you? > [@](#): > > Why do we shy away from the term “illegal immigrant”? Because they’re people and deserve to be treated with dignity. When someone comes here illegally, they’re an illegal immigrant. When someone robs a bank, we don’t say they made “an unauthorized withdrawal”. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/127 "2014-08-04T20:27:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > 8 year olds running away from gang violence in their home countries are not criminals. The definition of “criminal” has nothing to do with age or background. > **[Definition of CRIMINAL](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criminal)** > > relating to, involving, or being a crime; relating to crime or to the prosecution of suspects in a crime; guilty of crime; also : of or befitting a criminal… See the full definition \*1 : relating to, involving, or being a crime \ 2 : relating to crime or to the prosecution of suspects in a crime \ \ \* If you want to argue that we should assist such people in need, I can definitely agree. But the definition of “criminal” has nothing to do with age or background. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/128 "2014-08-04T20:30:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I can’t really complain about finding that in a post, and you won’t find me doing so. Then we’re in agreement. A person is not “an illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/129 "2014-08-04T20:30:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let’s leave libertarians out of this. The “I” in that quote was a stand-in for “Christian”, although I am not a Christian, myself. IOW, there is nothing “Christian” about forcing other people to adhere to Christian beliefs. You do agree with that, don’t you? > > When someone comes here illegally, they’re an illegal immigrant. When someone robs a bank, we don’t say they made “an unauthorized withdrawal”. By the same strictly correct semantic token, when a man robs a bank with a baby in his arms, we don’t charge the child as an accomplice. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/130 "2014-08-04T20:32:30Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Whoever chose which letters to the editor were going to get published managed to always select the ones that sounded the most mean-spirited in their protests of the usage. Missed the edit window. To clarify: _…their protests of the **more restrained** usage._ ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/131 "2014-08-04T20:32:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Righties love the term “illegal immigrants” because it’s dehumanizing. Is the term “shoplifter” dehumanizing, by that logic? What about any other term used to refer to people who have broken a particular law? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/132 "2014-08-04T20:35:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you clarify? > > It seems to me you’re suggesting that a true Christian witness has no choice but to favor an unchecked immigration policy, but that can’t be what you’re saying. > > So what positions may a true Christian witness permissibly take with respect to immigration, in your view? Who said anything about immigration? \* When wilt thou save the people, O God of mercy, when? The people, Lord, the people, not thrones and crowns, but men?\* What do we, as Christians, have to do with nations? Other than to use our presence in one or another of them as a means of seeking justice for all persons? It seems that some of my allegedly fellow Christians are using national boundaries as an excuse to say, “fuck those children.” Tell me, do you see them advocating some more creative and loving alternative than just turning these kids away at the border, or sending them back to whatever circumstances impelled them to take the risks they did to get here? Because I’m not seeing it. I’m certainly open to one if they’ve got one. But I’m not hearing a hint of that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/133 "2014-08-04T20:36:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Is the term “shoplifter” dehumanizing, by that logic?.. If you steal some candy, the don’t call you a “thief” for the rest of your life. Make a mistake, you don’t get called “stupid” forever. But suck just _one_ cock… Howzabout we just call them “children”? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/134 "2014-08-04T20:36:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then we’re in agreement. A person is not “an illegal.” Thank you. That was the entire point of my rebuke to **Velocity**. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/135 "2014-08-04T20:36:36Z")
I think we need to avoid the blanket label of “All illegal immigrants are fleeing violence and poverty and seeking a better life.” Many are, yes. But some people who cross the border illegally are human traffickers, drug smugglers, violent criminals, drug cartel members and the like. I have yet to hear someone present a convincing reason why they should be allowed to remain in the US. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/136 "2014-08-04T20:45:04Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > 8 year olds running away from gang violence in their home countries are not criminals. > [@Velocity](#): > > The definition of “criminal” has nothing to do with age or background. > > [Criminal Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criminal) > \*1 : relating to, involving, or being a crime \ > 2 > : relating to crime or to the prosecution of suspects in a crime \ \ \* > > If you want to argue that we should assist such people in need, I can definitely agree. But the definition of “criminal” has nothing to do with age or background. There you go again, gettin’ all careless with nouns and adjectives. **BobLibDem** made an assertion using the term “criminal[s]” in its noun form, and you chose to rebut him with dictionary definitions and usage examples using the adjectival form. [del]Twice.[/del] I mean, _thrice_. Just curious; do you know how to diagram a sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/137 "2014-08-04T20:46:39Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think we need to avoid the blanket label of “All illegal immigrants are fleeing violence and poverty and seeking a better life.” And I think we aught not lie about what others are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/138 "2014-08-04T20:53:56Z")
Then, Velocity, does the question become how do we separate the sheep from the goats, the people fleeing violence and poverty in the hope of a better life from the human traffickers, the drug smugglers, the violent criminals and the like. My congressman, good old Steve King, and maybe the AFA, seem to think they’re all goats and there are no sheep. That view just defies human compassion (something I like to think that Our Savior advocated) logic and experience. After a while a guy gets a bit tired of the idea that residing in the fair country is some sort of country club thing and that we need to exclude people we don’t want in our little club for one reason or another – or more likely for one pretext or another when the real reason is too ugly to let see the light of day. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/139 "2014-08-04T20:58:38Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > Then, Velocity, does the question become how do we separate the sheep from the goats, the people fleeing violence and poverty in the hope of a better life from the human traffickers, the drug smugglers, the violent criminals and the like. My congressman, good old Steve King, and maybe the AFA, seem to think they’re all goats and there are no sheep. That view just defies human compassion (something I like to think that Our Savior advocated) logic and experience. It’s a good question. Ideally this would be done on a case-by-case process of evaluation, but when we’re talking millions of illegal immigrants, that could be a logistical and procedural nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578/140 "2014-08-04T21:04:01Z")
As I noted earlier, the quotes in the OP don’t seem to be referring to the children recently crossing the border, but to adults here illegally. Maybe this group wants to ship the kids back and maybe they don’t-- I think reasonable people can disagree about that policy. There certainly is moral hazard, at minimum, of keeping them here. The OP Claims to be a Christian, and yet he’s not being very Christian wrt judging others. I seem to remember Jesus saying something along those lines. Judge not… casting the first stone… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pitting-of-the-good-christians-of-the-american-family-association/694578.md?page=8)