# A plea for sanity regarding recent rape cases. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2014, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645 "2014-12-08T08:50:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/22 "2014-12-12T01:20:47Z")
I’m in a strange position, because while I believe that rape is a seriously underreported crime, but I also have grave doubts about the percentage of rape reports that are actually true. Estimates by serious researchers without a big axe to grind put false allegations anywhere from sub-8% to over-21%, but even then it involved a lot of guesswork and assumptions. That less-than-8% could have beena mere 1%. The not-less-than-21% could easily have been way, way higher in practice but definitive evidence wasn’t available. Which puts me in an ugly position because I don’t see a good public policy here. There’s often little evidence, and I don’t trust people’s word very often in such charged cases. And unfortunately, this is a situation where false positives and false negatives are hugely problematic. One thing I am not happy with is that the Obama administration seems to want to deal with the situation on college campuses (and the evidence of an actual rape epidemic there is pretty thin) by encouraging colleges and universities to adopt kangaroo courts, even arguing that Title IX requires administrative actions inherently weighted towards complaining women - but they evidently _don’t_ think the situation is serious enough to involve the police. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/23 "2014-12-12T01:47:27Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > For many personalities, there is a very large secondary gain to achieving victimhood status. You have suffered. Greatly. Your inadequacies are no longer your fault. You are a Victim. Something uttterly understandable is responsible for whatever it is going wrong in your life… > > The real lesson is that it is very easy for some personalities to get sucked into making false allegations under the proper conditions and with the right coaching from those prosecuting their narrative. Nail. Hit on the head. I had a friend who was accused of rape when we were college age. After the dust settled, it was determined to be a false accusation (he had an ironclad alibi ), and the girl was both upset at him and also looking for victimhood status and enjoying the attention. My second experience in the matter is that I served on the jury on a rape trial. All 12 of us believed that the accuser made up the story. We thought she did so out of vengeance coupled with a complete lack of ethics (she accused her landlord to get outof paying rent ). Note that this isn’t just my opinion; the entire jury came to the same conclusion. To make matters worse, the defendant’s lawyer told me later that the county takes way too many questionable sexual assault trials to court, hinting that there is political pressure and professional gain to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/24 "2014-12-12T02:39:23Z")
Alan Dershowitz, civil libertarian and defense attorney, [has this to say](http://www.cotwa.info/2014/10/prof-alan-dershowitz-harvards-policy.html): > [@Alan Dershowitz](#): > > Harvard’s policy was written by people who think sexual assault is so heinous a crime that even innocence is not a defense. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/25 "2014-12-12T03:11:54Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Rebbeca Traister, the author of this, makes a big assumption here. She seems to assume that “the reading public”, i.e. almost everyone, believes that there are few or no real stories of rape. But what’s her basis for this belief? **I know of no one anywhere who thinks that rape** doesn’t happen, or that violent rape or date rape or any other category doesn’t happen, or that it **doesn’t happen in the great majority of cases where an accusation is made** , or that we don’t need harsh punishments for those convicted of rape. And yet feminists like Traister appear to take it for granted that “the reading public” does generally think these sorts of things. It appears to me there’s a set here on this message board that fits this characterization pretty well. > [@Rune](#): > > I used to believe all rape allegations since I couldn’t imagine any reason anyone would want to make false accusations, but there have been so many false or spurious ones that I find that very hard anymore. Also I’ve read that various US prosecutors estimate the percentage of false rapes allegations are in the range of 40%-50%, and that it certainly overwhelmingly is the violent crime for which the percentage of false allegations is the highest. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/26 "2014-12-12T04:05:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What I want to know is why the hell anyone would want to make a false allegation. Let alone that you might ruin somebody’s life, what is in it for you? Hmmm…You don’t know how nasty people are? In a documentary I saw about a sex crime unit, the two cases of false accusation of rape shown were motivated by : 1. A domestic dispute. 2. Vengeance for not reimbursing a loan of about € 50. Some people will go back at you in any way they can, for the most petty reasons imaginable, and the worst damage they can do, the better. I’m not sure why it would surprise anybody reading the papers. Some people will _kill_ you over € 50. That said, false accusations are apparently often used as a cover-up (don’t admit to spouse that you’re cheating on him with his best friend , accuse a random shmoe of rape instead) or even to protect the actual rapist (don’t tell the police it’s dad, accuse the neighbour instead). Some guy was freed after many years recently in France following such a situation : a 13-14 yo or so prefered to accuse some school employee of rape rather than the school bully of some sexual impropriety. She recanted well into adulthood. She first feared the bully, was pressured into giving a name by police/parents and picked him randomly, and latter didn’t dare to admit she had lied resulting in sending a guy behind bars for many years. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/27 "2014-12-12T05:00:39Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What I want to know is why the hell anyone would want to make a false allegation. For vengeful motives, for political motives, to name a few. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/28 "2014-12-12T06:49:54Z")
What is the metric whereby “false allegations” are measured. Demonstrably false? Deliberate lies? Misidentification? Insufficient evidence? Acquittals? Convicted of a lesser crime? Plea bargain? Depending on what you used to define, you could get any sort of statistic. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/29 "2014-12-12T07:17:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What is the metric whereby “false allegations” are measured. Demonstrably false? Deliberate lies? Misidentification? Insufficient evidence? Acquittals? Convicted of a lesser crime? Plea bargain? Depending on what you used to define, you could get any sort of statistic. Why don’t you try reading the linked article? It’s pretty clear on the methodology that was used, and the standard applied ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/30 "2014-12-12T07:47:51Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Why don’t you try reading the linked article? > > It’s pretty clear on the methodology that was used, and the standard applied The Slate article in the OP? I did, and the question stands. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/31 "2014-12-12T09:29:21Z")
[Quote=Martin Hyde] I think it never helps to exaggerate things or to distort them in anyway. One of the big problems is the persistent myth that college campuses perpetuate a “rape culture.” In fact, women on college campuses aged 18-24 are less likely to be raped than women who are not enrolled in college in that same cohort. Additionally, rapes in general have steadily gone down since the mid-1990s, from 5 per 1,000 to a little over 2. [/quote] Do you have cites for these claims. I’m not saying I don’t believe you or anything but I’d heard very differently and would just like to find out more. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/32 "2014-12-12T12:22:06Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It appears to me there’s a set here on this message board that fits this characterization pretty well. Do I appear to you to be the sort of person who is easily shamed or intimidated out of writing what he wants? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/33 "2014-12-12T13:49:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > … why the hell anyone would want to make a false allegation. Let alone that you might ruin somebody’s life, what is in it for you? It used to carry considerable stigma, has it now so completely flipped that having being raped is now considered a badge of honour to be sought for and desired? Well: > [@](#): > > Elizabeth Paige Coast, then 18, testified that when she was 10, she was in her grandmother’s yard when a 14-year-old boy from across the street named “John” pinned her against a garage, fondled her and forced her to perform a sex act. > > Asked why she did not tell anyone, she said: “I didn’t know what had happened. I didn’t understand it, but I knew it was wrong so I thought they would get mad at me. And, plus, I was just really, really embarrassed and I didn’t want to tell anybody.” > > Coast testified that she first told her parents in 2006. Later, she and her parents met with a counselor who recommended she report her account to police. > > Her testimony was detailed, graphic and apparently convincing. Montgomery recalls she even cried. A cousin of Coast testified she once saw Montgomery hold Coast to the garage grabbing her stomach, but that nothing sexual was involved. > . > . > . > In her closing argument, Leslie Siman-Tov, then the assistant commonwealth’s attorney who prosecuted the case, said: “Judge, she has no ax to grind. There’s no reason for her to make this up.” > “She is simply telling the court what happened; if there was some kind of motive to get him in trouble, maybe that is something that I could understand, but she comes in here with no motive,” Siman-Tov said. But: > [@](#): > > Anton Bell, the Hampton commonwealth’s attorney, said that about a month ago Coast, who at the time worked in the records department for the Hampton police, told an officer she lied at the trial. > . > . > . > At the hearing, Bell told West that when Coast was 16, her parents confronted her when they discovered she had been performing Internet searches for sex stories. In an effort to explain what she had been doing, she claimed she had been sexually assaulted. > > Asked who assaulted her, she named “John” who lived across the street from her grandmother’s house and who had moved from Hampton. She did not believe police could find him since the crime had happened so many years earlier, Bell said. [Link.](http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/innocence-case-stemmed-from-perjury-not-error/article_f7847128-377e-11e2-b2a7-001a4bcf6878.html) > [@](#): > > Facing up to 10 years in prison [for perjury], she did not ask Jones for mercy. > > “There are no words that I can say that will erase the damage I’ve done,” a tearful Coast told the judge, reading from a statement. > > Focusing her remarks on Montgomery, Coast said, “I am ashamed for my cowardice. … I want you to know I never meant to hurt you.” > > She added: “I had no idea how far this lie would go.” She was sentenced to two months in jail and ordered to pay $90,000 in restitution to the man who spent four years in prison following his conviction based on her accusation. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/34 "2014-12-12T18:05:31Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’m in a strange position, because while I believe that rape is a seriously underreported crime, but I also have grave doubts about the percentage of rape reports that are actually true. That’s not a strange position at all; in fact, it should be “I believe that rape is a seriously underreported crime, \*therefore \*I have grave doubts about the percentage of rape reports that are actually true.” i.e.: If you think that only 10% of rapes are reported, and if you think that for every 10 actual rapes, there is 1 false accusation, then math tells you that 50% of accusations are false (10 rapes x 10% reported = 1 true report; all false reports are reported by definition, so we now have 1 true and 1 false report). If you simultaneously claim that only 10% of rapes are reported, and that only 2% of reports are false, by doing the math we can conclude that you’re claiming that for every single false report there are 500 real actual rapes. IMO, you can only believe that if you’re operating from a worldview where women are saints and men are beasts. I don’t think the false-report percentage is 50%, precisely \*because \*I think the percentage of rapes that get reported is much higher than some activists claim: it may have been true at one time that 90% of rapes were unreported, but I think it’s crazy to think that decades of effort at making women feel safer in reporting victimization have not had an impact. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/35 "2014-12-13T05:15:25Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > Do you have cites for these claims. I’m not saying I don’t believe you or anything but I’d heard very differently and would just like to find out more. Cheers. As it happens, the Bureau of Justice Statistics just released a report confirming what Martin Hyde said. (I’m using a Kindle so I can’t post links, but you should be able to find it by searching.) They found 6.1 incidents per 1,000 students versus 7.6 per 1,000 among non-students. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/36 "2014-12-13T09:17:37Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What I want to know is why the hell anyone would want to make a false allegation. Let alone that you might ruin somebody’s life, what is in it for you? This week, a workshy twelve-year-old that I teach decided he’d accuse me of pushing him across the class and into a table. I guess I’m overdramatising if I claim that this might have meant I got fired from my job and lost my licence to teach and had to find menial labour for the rest of my working life with a conviction for assaulting a child on my record. Fortunately I can actually say “might have”, conditional past tense, because the other pupils in the class produced written statements to the effect that this kid had made it all up. But, you know, there really are people in the world who don’t consider ruining someone else’s life that big of a deal if it means they get their own way. Or to put it another way: If you believe that there are men who are prepared to use their penis as an offensive weapon and condemn someone to a scarred psyche that could last a lifetime or even drive them to suicide, why would you find it hard to believe that someone was prepared to use a false allegation the same way? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/37 "2014-12-13T10:23:54Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That is a stupid argument. It assumes that all rape accusations appear equal, and that it is impossible for a person to look at the presented evidence and decide whether it is more or less likely. When you’ve got several decades of stories of reporting victims being counseled not to press charges and investigations not even starting, it’s hard not to think so. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/38 "2014-12-13T15:58:03Z")
As I stated earlier, MANY of us (includng myself) are predisposed to believe stories that confirm what we already believe of the world. SUPPOSE you read a story in the Washington Times (or saw a story on Fox News) that told of a kind, sweet Christian secretary who claimed she’d been abused and fired from her job at Apple Inc. for wearing a necklace with a cross on it. The story identifies the woman only by first name, identifies the abusive co-workers and managers by pseudonyms, and makes little effort to get any other side of the story. It stands to reason that thousands of right-wing Christian activists would swallow this story hook, line and sinker, and would raise a huge fuss about it. TO put it mildly, the average liberal, secular Doper would raise an eyebrow or two and then start asking questions. “Wait- is that REALLY all there is to the story? Did it REALLY happen the way she says? Didn’t anybody else witness that and raise some objections? Isn’t there another side to this story?” Now, I myself (a Catholic Republican) would have similar questions. But to people predisposed to think the world is now persecuting Christians, such a story might ring true- even if it were largely bogus. It’s the same with “Jackie.” People who believe college campuses are hotbeds of rape and rich white male privilege were likely to swallow her story hook, line and sinker. Thing is, we should ALWAYS ask questions when a story doesn’t sound kosher, regardless of whether the story teaches a lesson that we ourselves believe. We always have to remember that there are crackpots and BS artists on OUR side, whatever side that is. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/39 "2014-12-13T16:05:24Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > When you’ve got several decades of stories of reporting victims being counseled not to press charges and investigations not even starting, it’s hard not to think so. Cite.:rolleyes: I mean it’s not like rape along with theft and murder is one of the actions that every settled society on earth has criminalised since the dawn of civilisation. Rape was discovered in the 1970’s. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/40 "2014-12-13T18:44:21Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I mean it’s not like rape along with theft and murder is one of the actions that every settled society on earth has criminalised since the dawn of civilisation. I honesly can’t tell if this is very wry sarcasm, or if you’re being serious. Because rape has really _not_ been universally seen as a crime throughout most of human history. You do realize that it was not until _1993_ that marital rape was outlawed in all 50 US states, right? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645/41 "2014-12-13T19:11:41Z")
Marital rape just speaks as to the scope of what we as society view as rape, traditionally it did not exist as a concept because marriage was seen as intrinsically consenting to sex. But I would say rape is essentially as universally recognized a crime as theft or murder. Now, how it is handled varies wildly and is pretty terrible for the woman in many countries, and in some parts of history rape was seen more as a “property crime against the father/husband” than it was a personal crime against the woman, but it was recognized as a crime way back in the Old Testament days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-sanity-regarding-recent-rape-cases/706645.md?page=3)