# A Plea for Tolerance on the Eve of War **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477 "2003-03-19T05:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![auliya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@auliya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auliya)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/41 "2003-03-19T22:01:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skid Row \* > \*\*Did anyone hear the Iraqi military guy call president Bush an “_idiot_” during a press conference yesterday? > > I mean REALLY! Isn’t that language reserved for the Pit?! > > I support my president 100% but even for those who do not agree with the war, please GOD remember the sacrifices US, Spanish and British troops are making to rid the planet of Hussein. > > Noble work indeed. \*\* Strewth. This really points to the differences between Australia and the US, doesn’t it. I heard an email from a visiting American read out on a magazine style current affairs programme on TV this morning, saying the writer could not believe how disrespectful we are of our politicians. Well gee whizz, this is a democracy and we ENCOURAGE people to be critical of politicians. If we weren’t we would be even more like you, supporting someone because a political office has somehow attained the status of “god-ness” And BTW **Skid Row** , the last time I looked, it wasn’t the US, UK and Spain sacrificing troops, it was the US, the UK and AUSTRALIA (you know that big, pretty empty continent in the southern hemisphere, the one your military left off their Hollywood engineered world map in the press centre in Qatar? Its a pity we weren’t left out of the rest of it as well) As far as the troops are concerned, there is no one that I have heard who is opposed to the war who wants nothing more than our troops brought home safely and as soon as possible. They are pawns in a terrible game, just as the Iraqi people are. None of them have a realistic choice. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/42 "2003-03-19T22:03:34Z")
_sigh_ I hate being confronted with this. I’m vehemently against war. Not just this war, all war. It makes me sick. Because of this, I tend to be kind of disgusted with the military: they ar ethe men and women who volunteer to do the jobs that I personally find morally reprehensible. I know not all of them are out there dropping bombs or shooting people, or even designing the bombs or guns, but the association still makes me wary. And yet…my sister, who I love very much (though we’ve had decidedly rocky times) is in the military. Right now, it’s not impossible for me to deal with - she’s a sophomore at the Air Force Academy. Prestigious school, she’s there for the academics, and so on. Only…it’s the military. Which I completely disagree with. Life in a cave in Idaho, completely isolated from the world, sounds pretty good right about now. Or maybe being stuck on a desert island…I dunno, a chill pill might have to do for now. I try to be sensitive and such about it, but sometimes…it’s hard to keep your mouth shut when you’re passionate about something, and more than once recently I’ve been needing a crow bar to get my foot out of my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/43 "2003-03-19T22:05:08Z")
If it’s “myopic, jejune, and Neanderthal” to negotiate with Saddam, why are we doing just that with Kim Jong Il, perhaps the one dictator left on earth more brutal and insane than Saddam? If 5-10,000 a month aren’t dying in North Korea as a direct result of Kim’s “one country” policy, it’s only because a whole lot of the less-well-off have either fled or starved to death. Kim’s got WMD, and either has or is on the verge of having a nuke. Isn’t this what we’re allegedly trying to stop in Iraq? No, I refuse to believe this is a “humanitarian war.” Humanitarianism never entered the equation until it was needed to justify other reasons for initiating the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/44 "2003-03-19T22:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duke \* > \*\*If it’s “myopic, jejune, and Neanderthal” to negotiate with Saddam, why are we doing just that with Kim Jong Il, perhaps the one dictator left on earth more brutal and insane than Saddam?.. > \*\* Just a WAG, but could it have something to do with the fact that conflict with North Korea would be a lot harder? ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/45 "2003-03-19T22:30:48Z")
If it’s really about “saving (civilian) lives”–should that matter? From a strictly utilitarian standpoint, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/46 "2003-03-20T00:02:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by auliya \* > **AUSTRALIA (you know that big, pretty empty continent in the southern hemisphere, the one your military left off their Hollywood engineered world map in the press centre in Qatar?** Seriously? Ye Gads. **Duke** , I’ll go with the “easy target” theory as well. Fighting North Korea might very well be the start of the first nuclear confrontation since WWII. Fighting Saddam is akin to rounding up a very mean and vicious dog - with 200 armed men. Problem is, there’s 50 innocent dogs you gotta kill to get to the mean one, but hey, who’s counting. But all in all, I’m damn glad GWB hasn’t locked in on North Korea yet. That’s potentially a hell of a lot more catastrophic for ALL the world than Iraq ever will be, and you KNOW he’ll come out with guns a-blazin’. Which could very well trigger ol’ Kim to just flip out, and do something really drastic. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/47 "2003-03-20T00:11:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > **Seriously? Ye Gads.** Sad, but true. > [@](#): > > [The Joint Operations Centre in Qatar - The World Today - Wednesday, 19 March , 2003 12:50:12](http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2003/s810958.htm) > The officially titled Joint Operations Centre is the war room where US General Tommy Franks will direct the campaign against Iraq. Interestingly, General Franks’ Hollywood-designed sound stage where he’ll be briefing the media has a large map. > > But that map doesn’t include Australia on it. It cuts out somewhere north of Singapore. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/48 "2003-03-20T00:26:29Z")
Ah, point taken, **Coldfire** and others. (Though I wish more light could be shed on the NK situation, especially regarding the situation of its people.) As far as “soft targets,” though, there are plenty of brutal dictatorships that could fall into that category. Zimbabwe, to name but one. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/49 "2003-03-20T00:29:29Z")
Well, Zimbabwe has many things, but oil ain’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/50 "2003-03-20T00:33:38Z")
Or “strategic interest.” As I say, “humanitarian interest” in invading Iraq is far, far down on Bush’s list. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/51 "2003-03-20T01:05:12Z")
> [@](#): > > AUSTRALIA (you know that big, pretty empty continent in the southern hemisphere, the one your military left off their Hollywood engineered world map in the press centre in Qatar? Its a pity we weren’t left out of the rest of it as well) Your turn, I suppose. Be super nice to them, and the gov’t publicity hacks will forget you exist; but just get one of your deputies to say something true about W, and they’ll get you all the attention you can handle. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/52 "2003-03-20T01:06:30Z")
Should have said “PM’s aides,” not “deputies.” ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/53 "2003-03-20T02:42:41Z")
Well, I’ll chime in and say I feel for the soldiers (and civvies) who are in harms way right now. I hope and pray that this is easy for their sake. But I’ll tell you right now that I’m going to remember the fool(s) who got us into this mess too and hold them accountable for every drop of blood shed. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/54 "2003-03-20T04:42:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > > **Never thought I’d be saying this, but I’m w/you milroyj on this one.** Why, thank you, **wring** , **Guin** , and others. If it helps lessen your discomfort any (in terms of agreeing with me about something), I agreed with **Stoid** once! 😃 For those who choose to continue the partisan arguements at this time, have at it, of course, but I respectfully decline to participate. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/55 "2003-03-20T08:08:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*For those who choose to continue the partisan arguements at this time,. \*\* Get bent. The arguments here, on both sides, are passionate and relevant. This is not Dems v. Reps here. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/56 "2003-03-20T10:16:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*There is actual evidence, somewhere, that Hussein is killing 5,000 to 10,000 people a month in 2003? Can we see it? \*\* I’m talking about averages over a period of time. You know, it really isn’t hard to find stuff on this. The man you’re defending launched nerve gas and biological toxin attacks against 4,000,000 people from April 1987 through October 1988, and has murdered more than 5,000 in a single day. Estimates vary between 1.2 million and 2.5 million murder victims all told. The number of rapes, tortures, and debilitations are impossible to estimate. I’m no mathematician, but if you want to nitpick over the numbers, then knock yourself out. And then tell us why he should just suddenly stop. Diplomacy? What a joke. He doesn’t give a shit about world opinion. From one of the sources below: > [@](#): > > According to a 1988 audiotape of a meeting of leading Iraqi officials published by Human Rights Watch, al-Majid [Saddam’s son, “Chemical Ali”] vowed to use chemical weapons against the Kurds, saying: > > "I will kill them all with chemical weapons! Who is going to say anything? The international community? Fuck them! the international community, and those who listen to them! > > “I will not attack them with chemicals just one day, but I will continue to attack them with chemicals for fifteen days.” [http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/](http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/) [http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/his/Khaledtext.html](http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/his/Khaledtext.html) [http://www.jamiat.org.za/al-jamiat/v38iraq.html](http://www.jamiat.org.za/al-jamiat/v38iraq.html) [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/iraq](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/iraq) [http://hrw.org/press/2003/03/iraq031403.htm](http://hrw.org/press/2003/03/iraq031403.htm) [http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq0303/](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq0303/) [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8257.htm](http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8257.htm) [http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Recent/MDE140082001](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Recent/MDE140082001) > **[The Washington Post: Breaking News, World, US, DC News and Analysis](https://www.washingtonpost.com/?language=printer)** > > Breaking news and analysis on politics, business, world national news, entertainment more. In-depth DC, Virginia, Maryland news coverage including traffic, weather, crime, education, restaurant reviews and more. [http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/01/iraq0117.htm](http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/01/iraq0117.htm) [http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/iraq.html](http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/iraq.html) [http://www.iraqfoundation.org/studies/2002/cnov/6\_claim.html](http://www.iraqfoundation.org/studies/2002/cnov/6_claim.html) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/57 "2003-03-20T10:58:08Z")
**Lib** , thanks for a re-run of the “Saddam is a bad guy” stuff. Do you have something up-to-date, or not? If all of this stuff happened years or decades ago, then the invasion today won’t reverse it. I really would be interested to see more up-to-date material. What happened? Couldn’t you find any, or didn’t you bother looking? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/58 "2003-03-20T11:37:20Z")
Two of the reports are dated 2003, Desmo. If you’re going to be a jerk, at least be careful about it. ---
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/59 "2003-03-20T11:43:16Z")
\*\*If all of this stuff happened years or decades ago, then the invasion today won’t reverse it. \*\* And if it happened 30 seconds ago, it couldn’t be reversed. The intention is to prevent future events like those reported. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477/60 "2003-03-20T11:45:08Z")
I read (or at least skimmed) the whole lot before posting the first time. One report _dated_ 2003 refers to events in 1988. The other report dated 2003 provided a cumulative total of ethnic minorities forced from their homes since 1991. Who’s arguing about whether Saddam is a bad guy? No one I’ve noticed on this board. You were asked a specific question. Do you have a specific answer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-plea-for-tolerance-on-the-eve-of-war/162477.md?page=4)