# A Pogrom in Amsterdam **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 8, 2024, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913 "2024-11-08T06:33:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/41 "2024-11-08T22:19:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t know where you are getting your information from, Your own link, which has a hyperlink in like the first or second sentence that leads here: > **[NSW police say analysis shows pro-Palestine chant in viral Sydney Opera House...](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/02/sydney-opera-house-palestine-protest-nsw-police-antisemitic-chant-no-evidence)** > > Independent expert says with ‘overwhelming certainty’ the phrase was not ‘gas the Jews’, as was widely reported around the world > [@](#): > > Police said they received several statements following the protest stating that the offensive antisemitic gas phrase was chanted during the event. > > “Those persons have not been able to ascribe those words to any individual,” Lanyon said. “We haven’t identified any individual who used those words.” > > **There were, however, other offensive chants, including “fuck the Jews”. “Yes, certainly, there is evidence of that, and those are offensive and completely unacceptable,” he said.** “But I think the major contention has been about the phrase that was chanted. And quite emphatically, our expert has said that it’s ‘Where’s the Jews?’.” And by the way, “where’s the Jews” is also pretty terrifying. Far away from anywhere the chanters can get a hold of us, I hope! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/42 "2024-11-08T22:19:55Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > So the level of agency you attribute to ProPalestinian people is the same as the level of agency you attribute to a savage animal? Interesting. > > Honestly, riots after big sports events isn’t that uncommon. Among people of a variety of ethnic backgrounds. According to the king and prime minister of the Netherlands, as well as the mayor of Amsterdam, this was significantly more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/43 "2024-11-08T22:24:13Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Tell me: Is it possible that if the Maccabi fans hadn’t been assholes, the attacks on the Israeli fans wouldn’t have happened? I’m not asking if it is fact, mind you. Just if it’s possible. Considering how the pogrom was planned well in advance, no, I don’t think so. > **['Jew hunt': Rioters planned Amsterdam pogrom in Telegram groups in advance -...](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-828211?utm_source=jpost.app.apple&utm_medium=share)** > > An alleged "Jew hunt" was announced well in advance in the messaging app Telegram, prompting rioters to travel from far outside Amsterdam to attack Israelis. And the original article, in Dutch: > **[Gitzwarte nacht in Amsterdam: ’Jodenjacht’ al ruim van tevoren aangekondigd...](https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/950648538/gitzwarte-nacht-in-amsterdam-jodenjacht-door-scooterjongeren-en-taxichauffeurs-al-ruim-van-tevoren-aangekondigd-op-telegram)** > > „We hebben zeer heftig antisemitisch geweld gezien”, constateerde de Amsterdamse hoofdofficier van justitie René de Beukelaer na een nacht waarin Israëliërs in de hoofdstad opgejaagd werden door hordes ’scooterjongeren en taxichauffeurs’, zoals de... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/44 "2024-11-08T22:29:25Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Over at the BBC, they note that these particular Maccabi fans are noted for this sort of behavior. > [@Mikkel](#): > > And yes, the Ajax fans did shout antisemitic slogans, but that is what hooligans do. In fact, [we’ve had conversations on this board about the weird phenomenon of Jewish-identity-as-team-mascot among Dutch football fans:](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-school-students-yell-at-jewish-students/748841/69) > [@Kimstu](#): > > […] a sort of pseudo-anti-Semitism repurposed for football (soccer) partisanship, rather than genuine anti-Semitism: > > > [@](#): > > > > Spring sunshine filled the stadium as the local team, FC Utrecht, kicked off against perennial powerhouse Ajax Amsterdam. […] > > > > “Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas,” sang a section of the home supporters towards the fans visiting from Amsterdam […] > > > > But Ronny Naftaniel, Chairman of the Dutch Jewish Humanitarian Fund, sought to draw a line between the chants — as insulting as they are — and anti-Semitism. […] he said such insults have more to do with local rivalries than true bigotry. […] > > > > “It’s indeed very shocking what happened at the game between FC Utrecht and Ajax,” he said. […] Of course, it has some deeper roots which go back to the fact that Ajax supporters, they expose themselves as Jews. They walk with flags with the Star of David and they call themselves ‘The Jews.’ So the problem is that then their adversaries act as if Ajax are the Jews and come up with the most insulting slogans.” > > > > “For us Jews, we are disgusted,” he said. “But those people who do those slogans are not Nazis. They are not most of them fundamentalists whatsoever. They are supporters, hard core supporters, of those clubs. […]" > > In other words, a bunch of mostly (entirely?) non-Jewish soccer players call their team “The Jews” as an ethnic nickname (sort of like “Redskins” or “Indians” or “Braves” in US sports, or “Gypsies” in Australian cricket). Then that team’s rivals use anti-Semitic/Nazi symbolism and chants to express their antagonism. AFAICT, **the whole phenomenon involves few or no actual Jews in any capacity**. > > It’s definitely offensive, and deeply weird, but anti-Semitism _qua_ anti-Semitism it ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/45 "2024-11-08T22:34:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And yes, the Ajax fans did shout antisemitic slogans, but that is what hooligans do. > > In fact, [we’ve had conversations on this board about the weird phenomenon of Jewish-identity-as-team-mascot among Dutch football fans:](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-school-students-yell-at-jewish-students/748841/69) Ajax fans weren’t the ones attacking Jews across the city. That was a coordinated effort, preplanned on Telegram and apparently somehow the Uber app as well. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/46 "2024-11-08T22:49:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And by the way, “where’s the Jews” is also pretty terrifying. Far away from anywhere the chanters can get a hold of us, I hope! …the organisers of the rally loudly condemned any anti-Semitic chants or behaviour. Surely the same way as you would condemn any anti-Muslim chants yelled out by Israeli supporters. That behaviour shouldn’t be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/47 "2024-11-08T22:56:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Considering how the pogrom was planned well in advance, no, I don’t think so. I think I’ll wait for more information. This is sounding less and less like a random outbreak of antisemitism, though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/48 "2024-11-08T22:56:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Surely the same way as you would condemn any anti-Muslim chants yelled out by Israeli supporters. That behaviour shouldn’t be tolerated. I agree. It also shouldn’t result in hordes of wannabe cossacks riding across town on scooters and beating the shit out of Israeli citizens. And it certainly doesn’t justify preemptively planning to attack the Jews on Telegram days before any chants could have even happened. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/49 "2024-11-08T23:00:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Considering how the pogrom was planned well in advance, no, I don’t think so. > > [https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-828211?utm\_source=jpost.app.apple&utm\_medium=share](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-828211?utm_source=jpost.app.apple&utm_medium=share) It does say: > [@](#): > > The authorities believe that a distinction was made between Israeli fans and Jews in general. They also distinguish between the pro-Palestinian activists who have been demonstrating in the city for months and the perpetrators of Thursday night. These are said to be mainly ‘young people with scooters and taxi drivers’ who were targeting Maccabi supporters because they allegedly included Israeli ex-soldiers and Mossad agents. For a subset of young man, violence is fun, and all they need is an excuse. Israel gave them one. Some of the Maccabi fans gave them one. It’s wrong no matter the provocation. But Israel has given them plenty. The fact there was preexisting animus does not absolve Israel of all responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/50 "2024-11-08T23:01:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And it certainly doesn’t justify preemptively planning to attack the Jews …I don’t think there were any pre-emptive planning to “attack the Jews.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/51 "2024-11-08T23:17:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > For a subset of young man, violence is fun, and all they need is an excuse. Israel gave them one. Some of the Maccabi fans gave them one. It’s also a very bizarre twist that the FC Ajax football team of Amsterdam, whose supporters were the perpetrators of the anti-Maccabi/anti-Israeli/antisemitic violence, is [the team that traditionally calls itself “the Jews” and is celebrated with Jewish-associated symbolism.](https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/05/football/anti-semitism-ajax-netherlands-spt-intl/index.html) > [@](#): > > The relationship between sections of Ajax’s support and its appropriation of Jewish identity was highlighted in the [2013 documentary “Super Jews.”](https://www.idfa.nl/en/film/fc57c386-81cc-48c8-83e5-bf3eb3c9fc9d/superjews) > > Its director, [Nirit Peled](https://twitter.com/mamamess), who moved to Amsterdam from Tel Aviv, at the age of 22, recalls being on a tram with Ajax supporters waving Israeli flags and singing about being Jewish. > > She remembers men singing the traditional Hebrew folk song ‘Hava Nagila,’ wearing the Star of David, and chanting incessantly about “Joden”, the Dutch word for “Jews.” […] > > “The kids don’t understand the connection, ” she says. “A nice anecdote is that young people in Amsterdam today will go to a jeweler and ask for the ‘Ajax star.’” > > “They don’t even know that it’s actually the Star of David. Today, it’s the Ajax star. […]" ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/52 "2024-11-08T23:32:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s also a very bizarre twist that the FC Ajax football team of Amsterdam, whose supporters were the perpetrators of the anti-Maccabi/anti-Israeli/antisemitic violence, is [the team that traditionally calls itself “the Jews” and is celebrated with Jewish-associated symbolism.](https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/05/football/anti-semitism-ajax-netherlands-spt-intl/index.html) What makes you think it was Ajax supporters? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/53 "2024-11-08T23:32:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t think there were any pre-emptive planning to “attack the Jews.” > **['Jew hunt': Rioters planned Amsterdam pogrom in Telegram groups in advance -...](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-828211?utm_source=jpost.app.apple&utm_medium=share)** > > An alleged "Jew hunt" was announced well in advance in the messaging app Telegram, prompting rioters to travel from far outside Amsterdam to attack Israelis. > **[Gitzwarte nacht in Amsterdam: ’Jodenjacht’ al ruim van tevoren aangekondigd...](https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/950648538/gitzwarte-nacht-in-amsterdam-jodenjacht-door-scooterjongeren-en-taxichauffeurs-al-ruim-van-tevoren-aangekondigd-op-telegram)** > > „We hebben zeer heftig antisemitisch geweld gezien”, constateerde de Amsterdamse hoofdofficier van justitie René de Beukelaer na een nacht waarin Israëliërs in de hoofdstad opgejaagd werden door hordes ’scooterjongeren en taxichauffeurs’, zoals de... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/54 "2024-11-08T23:33:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s also a very bizarre twist that the FC Ajax football team of Amsterdam, whose supporters were the perpetrators of the anti-Maccabi/anti-Israeli/antisemitic violence, is [the team that traditionally calls itself “the Jews” and is celebrated with Jewish-associated symbolism.](https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/05/football/anti-semitism-ajax-netherlands-spt-intl/index.html) Ajax supporters were not the perpetrators, according to Dutch police. This wasn’t a football hooligan brawl. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/55 "2024-11-08T23:50:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ajax supporters were not the perpetrators, according to Dutch police. > > This wasn’t a football hooligan brawl. Yeah, football hooligans are mostly white, and there is a 99% chance the attackers were Muslim immigrants or children of such. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2024, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/56 "2024-11-10T01:48:02Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What makes you think it was Ajax supporters? Quoting Mikkel, unless I misunderstood them: > [@Mikkel](#): > > Two gangs of hooligans clashed in Amsterdam. Their country of origin isn’t a factor. […] > > And yes, the Ajax fans did shout antisemitic slogans, but that is what hooligans do. Also, just based on the fact that FC Ajax is AFAIK the largest and most successful football club of Amsterdam and of the entire Netherlands, I’m guessing that a significant proportion of almost any arbitrarily selected group of Amsterdammers includes Ajax fans. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2024, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/57 "2024-11-10T02:02:04Z")
This is absolutely unreal. The level of gaslighting about the motivation of the attackers that I’ve seen on Twitter and even some media outlets has been beyond insane. This was a premeditated pogrom, planned days ahead and with attempted attacks before the game as well. > **['Jew hunt': Rioters planned Amsterdam pogrom in Telegram groups in advance -...](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-828211?utm_source=jpost.app.apple&utm_medium=share)** > > An alleged "Jew hunt" was announced well in advance in the messaging app Telegram, prompting rioters to travel from far outside Amsterdam to attack Israelis. This was not a clash between rival football teams. This will happen here too, and people I thought were allies will say nothing. I am floored. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2024, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/58 "2024-11-10T03:36:37Z")
I think people have little sympathy for football hooligans starting fights and trashing their city. To the extent there was not a clash between rival football teams but actually some kind of anti-Semitic activity organized by third parties, the only correct response to Nazis is to square up and make it crystal-clear they are not welcome in your city. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2024, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/59 "2024-11-10T03:49:52Z")
…the primary source for the Telegram claims are locked behind a paywall and Google translate. Every other source that I’ve checked relies on the primary source and I can’t verify the details. If you’ve got an accurate timeline and screenshots or anything else, please feel free to share because that would be helpful. But outside of obviously right-aligned press outlets like the Daily Mail and the National Post, this hasn’t been picked up by the mainstream press. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2024, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/60 "2024-11-10T04:02:21Z")
Neutral question: if these attacks were so carefully coordinated via social media, why wasn’t interested parties monitoring and coordinating countermeasures? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913.md?page=4)