# A Poorly Timed Presidential Grammatical Error **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 22, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595 "2004-01-22T06:45:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/1 "2004-01-22T06:45:44Z")
From the President’s State of the Union Address: > [@](#): > > This nation will not go back to the days of simply shuffling children along from grade to grade _without them learning the basics_. The word _learning_, as used in this sentence, is a gerund. Possessive forms of pronouns are used immediately before gerunds. The President should have used the possessive pronoun _their_ instead of _them_: “This nation will not go back to the days of simply shuffling children along from grade to grade without their learning the basics.” Irregardless, he done real good. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/2 "2004-01-22T07:05:21Z")
Let’s see him blame this one on the Brits. ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/3 "2004-01-22T07:06:41Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > From the President’s State of the Union Address: > > The word _learning_, as used in this sentence, is a gerund. Possessive forms of pronouns are used immediately before gerunds. The President should have used the possessive pronoun _their_ instead of _them_: > > “This nation will not go back to the days of simply shuffling children along from grade to grade without their learning the basics.” > > Irregardless, he done real good. :rolleyes: According to the American Heritage Book of English Usage (and every English teacher I ever had) both forms are correct. So for once, Bush manages to get it right. [http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/028.html](http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/028.html) -Lil ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/4 "2004-01-22T08:15:41Z")
Agreed. Few people take that rule seriously these days, on either side of the Atlantic. The use regular pronouns with gerunds is well established, and I daresay the far more common construction. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/5 "2004-01-22T08:40:26Z")
Got to admit, using “their” instead of “them” in that sentence just sounds odd. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/6 "2004-01-22T09:10:30Z")
According to **Harbrace** , which has been and continues to be the standard in American universities and for most teachers of English: > [@](#): > > As a rule, use the possessive case immediately before a gerund. The only exceptions noted are with nouns, not adjectives. Even the link provided by **percypercy** shows problems only with certain possessive nouns, not pronouns, and describes the non-use of the possessive as “idiomatic.” Strunk and White agree: > [@](#): > > Gerunds usually require the possessive case. – **The Elements of Style** They show no exceptions involving possessive _pronouns_ and gerunds. I suspect that you are mistaken about your English teachers. Most of my colleagues were well-schooled in **Harbrace.** ---
**Author:** ![Calliope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Calliope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calliope)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/7 "2004-01-22T14:53:03Z")
Nitpick here, but irregardless is not a word. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/8 "2004-01-22T15:03:29Z")
> [@Calliope](#): > > Nitpick here, but irregardless is not a word. I hate to nitpick here, but you done been whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/9 "2004-01-22T15:04:33Z")
> [@Calliope](#): > > Nitpick here, but irregardless is not a word. whoosh! woosh, I say (to make this at least ten letters)! ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/10 "2004-01-22T15:04:58Z")
[reverse nitpick] Then how come _irregardless_ rates a listing in _Webster’s Collegiate_ (10th ed.)? [/reverse nitpick] (they do call it “nonstandard”) ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/11 "2004-01-22T15:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead. It just goes to show you that if enough people use a word that doesn’t exist, it will soon pop up in the dictionary… ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/12 "2004-01-22T15:25:30Z")
As per my previous post, I’d also like to point out that all the people claiming that ain’t ain’t a word… Well, I guess they were [wrong…](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=ain%27t) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/13 "2004-01-22T21:06:46Z")
Even if Bush and/or his writers knew the possessive of the gerund is grammatically preferred, I suspect they used the “less correct” version because it would “sound right” to their target audience. Sort of the same way he persists in saying “nukular,” even though you _know_ lots of people have mentioned it to him, at least in part because it helps his intended demographic to perceive him as being jus’-plain-folks instead of the corporate wolf in down-home sheep’s clothing that he is. ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/14 "2004-01-22T23:08:02Z")
Yes, I realize my link defined the use as idiomatic. I didn’t really think I needed to go into that much detail on the point, but if you insist… This generally means that the construction should not be used in the most formal writing, but it is proper in casual writing or, as Bush used it, in a speech. -Lil ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/15 "2004-01-23T07:04:03Z")
**IceWolf** You said: > [@](#): > > “Got to admit, using “their” instead of “them” in that sentence just sounds odd.” Quite often a _correct_ usage sounds odd. For example, the expression ‘between you and me’ is correct grammar, whereas ‘between you and I’ (though sounding better) is incorrect. And Zoe, I am shocked that the SDMB folks missed one of your grammatical “errors”. Yes your use of irregardless was properly chastised but your stating “he done real good” was totally overlooked. You _should_ have said “he done _really_ good”. LOL And a serious Whoosh Warning to _anyone_ that’s ready to pounce on that last paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/16 "2004-01-23T08:04:45Z")
**Ice Wolf** , you come go on up to the head of the class. 😃 **percypercy** , for the life of me, I cannot think of a more formal occasion than a Presidential Address to Congress. It’s not as if he were out stumping or speaking off-the-cuff. > [@](#): > > **Cervaise** : Even if Bush and/or his writers knew the possessive of the gerund is grammatically preferred, I suspect they used the “less correct” version because it would “sound right” to their target audience. I fear you are right. Too bad that he had to dummy down to Congress. 😉 Woe is I. ---
**Author:** ![International\_Playboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/48db29/32.png) [@International\_Playboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/International_Playboy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/17 "2004-01-25T03:33:07Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > **IceWolf** > You said: > > Quite often a _correct_ usage sounds odd. For example, the expression ‘between you and me’ is correct grammar, whereas ‘between you and I’ (though sounding better) is incorrect. That’s something I’m hearing more of from professional speakers that bugs me. More and more newscasters and other speakers are saying things like “he gave the award to Bill and I,” instead of “Bill and me.” You don’t say, “he gave the award to I,” so adding Bill to the sentence doesn’t change things. I guess they are trying to keep from the error of phrases like, “Bill and me went to the store,” so they use “I” on every occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/18 "2004-01-25T07:35:56Z")
**Sanguine** , the appearance of a word in the dictionary doesn’t mean it’s a ‘real word’ or that it’s correct grammar. “Irregardless” is self-contradictory and nonsensical. A dictionary isn’t an arbiter of words, it’s a guide to words that are commonly used, and that’s why it’s in there: because a large number of people make the same stupid mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/19 "2004-01-26T00:18:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …because a large number of people make the same stupid mistake. Which is exactly how a language evolves. Lots of “fake” words have been coined into the English language. Common use makes them “real”, grammar nazis and POTUSAs notwithstanding. -Horseflesh, what am a good speaker of da English language. P.S. 😕 Where did **Sanguine** post in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-poorly-timed-presidential-grammatical-error/225595/20 "2004-01-27T04:22:40Z")
Just reviving this thread to yield the point. After a few days and an exchange of emails with one now cranky former English teacher(and friend), I’m willing to admit that’s a gerund phrase. I may be forced back into 8th grade grammar class now. I hope Bushie’s happy. -Lil