# A Possibility: Is Kim Jong Un purging the old guard to bring progress? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717 "2013-12-19T13:37:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/1 "2013-12-19T13:37:03Z")
According to [this](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2013-12/19/c_132981813.htm), the Kaesong industrial complex is still going and might even possibly, potentially, at some point (additional qualifier, additional qualifier) open up to non South Korean labor or presence, even without Jang being the heading person of the economic divide. Is it possible that Kim is moving to modernize North Korea and wanted to purge those that would stand in the way? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/2 "2013-12-19T13:42:22Z")
Honestly, the whole _“executing his former girlfriend and sending their families to death camps”_ smells more of psychotic paranoid tyrant to me than an undercover progressive thinker. More likely it’s the South Korean investors pressing the issue than Li’l Kim doing anything, ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/3 "2013-12-19T13:44:54Z")
\*\*If \*\*Li’l Kim is pushing for progress, it’s only for the [comfort and convenience](http://i.imgur.com/UOOT2O8.jpg) of the tiny elite class, and not for the nation as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/4 "2013-12-19T13:49:34Z")
Quite seriously, I can’t imagine Lil Kimmy having any grasp of what “progress” is. I wouldn’t bet on his grasp of the more essential concept, “reality.” ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/5 "2013-12-19T13:51:37Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Honestly, the whole _“executing his former girlfriend and sending their families to death camps”_ smells more of psychotic paranoid tyrant to me than an undercover progressive thinker. > > More likely it’s the South Korean investors pressing the issue than Li’l Kim doing anything, But if Jang was the primary driver of the Kaesong complex, as it’s been generally held in the media we have access to, wouldn’t the Kaesong’s progress suffer as a result of his summary execution? > [@Rachellelogram](#): > > If Li’l Kim is pushing for progress, it’s only for the comfort and convenience of the tiny elite class, and not for the nation as a whole. I didn’t mean it in the way of “Tomorrow will be free food for the starving and Kim’s body will be hung in public” I meant it as more of a “In 50 years, North Korea might be modern.” ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/6 "2013-12-19T14:12:35Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Is it possible that Kim is moving to modernize North Korea and wanted to purge those that would stand in the way? No. The purge is simply to consolidate his position. Kim may, or may not, at some point, take some limited steps toward modernizing NK, but this purge has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with a tyrant moving his own cadre into positions of power. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/7 "2013-12-19T18:04:07Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > According to [this](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2013-12/19/c_132981813.htm), the Kaesong industrial complex is still going and might even possibly, potentially, at some point (additional qualifier, additional qualifier) open up to non South Korean labor or presence, even without Jang being the heading person of the economic divide. Last I heard, the labor at the Gaeseong complex is non-South Korean. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/8 "2013-12-19T18:05:24Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Last I heard, the labor at the Gaeseong complex is non-South Korean. Sorry, open up to non South Korean COMPANIES to participate for the North Korean labor. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/9 "2013-12-19T18:07:30Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > But if Jang was the primary driver of the Kaesong complex, as it’s been generally held in the media we have access to, wouldn’t the Kaesong’s progress suffer as a result of his summary execution? Americans aren’t generally one issue voters. I don’t see how Kaesong played any significant role in his execution any more than I see the Obama campaign’s foreign policy stance towards France being a significant role in his re-election. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/10 "2013-12-19T19:25:29Z")
That reminds me of a motivational poster: “The floggings will continue until morale improves!” ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/11 "2013-12-20T01:20:40Z")
What we know of his background, you would have to hope that he has at least some modern ideas, standards and beliefs in an, at least partial, concept of “human rights” If you accept this as a given - then I guess it’s possible that he is consolidating power so that he has the strength to “open up”. Some form of “the ends justify the means”? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/12 "2013-12-20T04:09:39Z")
Why? What on earth makes you think that someone who is brought up as the favoured heir in a dynasty built on totalitarianism would want to move towards greater human rights? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/13 "2013-12-20T04:25:20Z")
Kim is expanding the prison camps in NK. > **[Satellites Show North Korea's Prison Camps Expanding Under Kim Jong-Un](https://news.yahoo.com/satellites-show-north-koreas-prison-camps-expanding-under-143047200.html)** > > An analysis of satellite images suggests that at least one North Korean prison camp has been significantly expanded over the past decade, including since the death of former premier Kim Jong-Il. The analysis, conducted by the Committee for Human... If anything he seems more inhumane than his father from what I have seen so far. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/14 "2013-12-20T04:46:08Z")
No, if anything Jang was a moderate who supported economic reforms. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/15 "2013-12-20T04:50:53Z")
His priority is probably looking after his own safety, which means purging everyone who is not entirely dependent on his good will. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/16 "2013-12-20T05:32:07Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Why? What on earth makes you think that someone who is brought up as the favoured heir in a dynasty built on totalitarianism would want to move towards greater human rights? Not human rights. When Kim III came to power, there was quite a bit of speculation that he admired and liked the China model. That he might be partial to increased economic reform. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/17 "2013-12-20T12:40:35Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Americans aren’t generally one issue voters. > > I don’t see how Kaesong played any significant role in his execution any more than I see the Obama campaign’s foreign policy stance towards France being a significant role in his re-election. Kaesong didn’t play a role in his execution. I said that with his execution, Kaesong will suffer from lesser status within the regime since Jang was the primary idea builder and driver of the complex. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Kim is expanding the prison camps in NK. > > [Satellites Show North Korea's Prison Camps Expanding Under Kim Jong-Un](http://news.yahoo.com/satellites-show-north-koreas-prison-camps-expanding-under-143047200.html) > > If anything he seems more inhumane than his father from what I have seen so far. Those camp expansions have been going on for a decade or more. While I have no doubt that Kim hasn’t stopped the expansion, it could very well be something that was initiated by the last Kim and continues on momentum…and slave labor. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > His priority is probably looking after his own safety, which means purging everyone who is not entirely dependent on his good will. The weight of opinion seems to be this. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/18 "2013-12-20T14:21:16Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > I didn’t mean it in the way of “Tomorrow will be free food for the starving and Kim’s body will be hung in public” I meant it as more of a “In 50 years, North Korea might be modern.” For the elite, sure. I don’t see any signs of things improving for the average North Korean. What reason does he have to change things? Unless the people revolt, which they haven’t done yet despite mass starvation, he’s sitting pretty at the top. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/19 "2013-12-20T14:51:42Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Kaesong didn’t play a role in his execution. I said that with his execution, Kaesong will suffer from lesser status within the regime since Jang was the primary idea builder and driver of the complex. Could you clarify what you mean then? Because in your own OP, you ask: > [@Farin](#): > > Is it possible that Kim is moving to modernize North Korea and wanted to purge those that would stand in the way? That’s rather suggestive that a substantial portion of the motivation for the execution lay with the economic considerations, particularly those associated with Kaesong. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717/20 "2013-12-20T15:41:28Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Could you clarify what you mean then? Because in your own OP, you ask: > > That’s rather suggestive that a substantial portion of the motivation for the execution lay with the economic considerations, particularly those associated with Kaesong. Jang was considered “moderate” by North Korean observers standards, primarily because he wanted to do economically beneficial things like Kaesong. Even if Kaesong is considered a success by the NK regime, Jang’s other economic policies may have been too conservative for what Kim wants. My question was asking if it was simply a “I like power” or possibly a “This guy is standing in the way of moving forward because he wanted to keep things like ol’ Dad.” and then move to a more modernized NK. And note: I say “modernized” and not “free.” As shown with China’s ascent, it can take 30+ years to build out without the state having to reform much in terms of human rights or propaganda. It’s only been the last decade or so that China started giving any ground on communications that aren’t state sanctioned. And even with the small amount of progress, it’s still incredibly controlled. Of course, as I understand it, Jang was a primary contact for the Chinese, so that may not be the direction that Kim goes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-possibility-is-kim-jong-un-purging-the-old-guard-to-bring-progress/676717.md?page=2)