# A Prominent British Jew speaks the truth about Israel and Palestine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030 "2014-07-25T15:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/181 "2014-08-01T04:03:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You really, REALLY need to study history and world geography before you spout your mouth off, dude. In fact, it’s not even the smallest nation. > _smh_ A Country is a group of people set up to support themselves as a State with the intention of Survival, sharing some form of nationality and common purpose. The Vatican City is composed of an administrative structure to support an organisation that happens to have some territory. It has people of many nationalities living their, all of whom have some function in the Catholic Church. It is more akin to the United Nations Plaza in New York than Belgium. It may happen to be listed as a country, but it is an anomaly being the mere rump of the papal states and now is the administrative center of a religion. To quote it as a normal country when the question is "Which country is most religious is silly beyond measure. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/182 "2014-08-01T04:18:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Sure, the U.S. is “more Christian” than Vatican City. > > How many denominations do they have? One! > > How many do we have? HUNDREDS! Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians and on and on and on. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Scientists. > > And Catholics too! The United States has Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, and Shintoists. I’m not aware of any population of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, or Shintoists in Vatican City. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/183 "2014-08-01T04:45:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The United States has Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, and Shintoists. > I’m not aware of any population of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, or Shintoists in Vatican City. Well, there, you see? The U.S. is more Christian and more Muslim, more Sikh, more Buddhist, more Taoist, etc. than Vatican City. We’re also way more atheist. They do have that really good library of pornography, now… (Just in case you haven’t caught on, I am only quipping here.) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/184 "2014-08-01T13:24:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, the point being that people in the UK see to talk about their religion a bit more than **pjen** claims. Of course, I did only provide the one cite to back that up, but I’m just trying to hew to the rigorous standards of evidence pioneered by **pjen** in this thread. No. You quoted a politician politicking. The Britishreally don’t actually care about religion. More recent immigrants do but for the rest of us religion is not part of our national or personal identity beyond the reflexive and content-free ticking of the C of E box on the census form. We live in a culture informed by it but it is not an active force any more even if we still get married in churches or pretend to be religious for 6 months to get into the local C of E school. We are a post-Christian society, which is what the former arch-bishop of Canterbury [was saying](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27177265) and to which Cameron was responding. > [@](#): > > Lord Williams, who retired from being the leader of the Church of England in 2012, said: "If I say that this is a post-Christian nation, that doesn’t mean necessarily non-Christian. > > “It means the cultural memory is still quite strongly Christian.” > > He added: "But [Britain is] post-Christian in the sense that habitual practice for most of the population is not taken for granted. > > "A Christian nation can sound like a nation of committed believers and we are not that. Equally, we are not a nation of dedicated secularists. > > "It’s a matter of defining terms. A Christian country as a nation of believers? No. > > “A Christian country in the sense of still being very much saturated by this vision of the world and shaped by it? Yes.” Cameron was doing some defensive politicking. When the tories talk about religion they are really indulging in dog-whistle anti-immigration politics aimed at UKIP supporters. He’s trying to shore up his white, elderly middle class vote in the south and get a slice of the angry white working class anti-immigrant vote in urban areas. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/185 "2014-08-01T15:53:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Suggest some with as much Christian allegiance and prominence in everyday life. Ireland and Italy have become mere shadows of their former religious states. France is positively anti-religion- far more so than mere separation of church and state. > > [Church attendance - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance) > > suggests that Ireland, Malta and Poland are the only ones with greater attendance at church than the USA. Poland is in rebound from years of the Catholic Church being highly restricted. Malta and Ireland have high attendance in the elderly and late middle aged, but are becoming more like the rest of Europe as the decades pass. Certainly…you could perhaps take a look at this list [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country). > [@](#): > > United States (details) 246,780,000 73% 22% 51% 49,965 Feel free to look up countries in that whole Central and South America regions (and let’s not forget my own home country of Mexico, ehe?) for countries that are more Christian…or do they not count as ‘real’ countries either? 😛 You seem focused almost exclusively on Europe as the only viable countries to look at…so, you could look up several in Eastern Europe (assuming THEY count). You will find that, actually, the US is not even in the top 10 of the ‘most Christian’ nations…maybe not even in the top 20, though that’s just me skimming the list. For someone who talks about the US a lot you don’t actually seem to know that much about it. You do realize that a lot of the sensational stuff on TV and in the news is there because, well, it is sensational…right? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/186 "2014-08-01T16:04:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Legally of course the USA is not a Christian country. De Facto it is probably the most Christian country in the world! Maybe if you discount most of Africa and Latin America, and even a few European countries. > **[Importance of religion by country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country)** > > This article charts a list of countries by importance of religion. > The table below is based on the global Gallup Poll in 2009 research which asked "Is religion important in your daily life?". Percentages for "yes" and "no" answers are listed below; they often do not add up to 100% because some answered "don't know" or did not answer. There are about 50 mostly Christian countries with higher self-professed religiosity than the United States, as well as a few others divided between Muslims and Christians (like Lebanon and Nigeria). ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/187 "2014-08-01T19:16:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Just imagine the uproar in the U.S. if an American president had said that. I doubt many would care. Maybe some lib bloggers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/188 "2014-08-01T22:40:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Vatican City is a country. Therefore you are weaseling your way out of your statement. An independent state it is, a country it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/189 "2014-08-01T22:45:03Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Cameron was doing some defensive politicking. When the tories talk about religion they are really indulging in dog-whistle anti-immigration politics aimed at UKIP supporters. He’s trying to shore up his white, elderly middle class vote in the south and get a slice of the angry white working class anti-immigrant vote in urban areas. I’m confused now, because I thought before you were disagreeing with what I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/190 "2014-08-01T22:50:46Z")
[Israeli writer Yochanan Gordon:](http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-strip-palestinian-genocide-permissible-claims-israeli-writer-1459390) [“When Genocide Is Permissible.”](https://archive.today/RPf3M) Posted on the _Times of Israel_ website, which shortly took it down, but you can still read the article at the latter link. It’s not clear whether he’s advocating genocide on all Palestinians or all Gazans or just members of Hamas – in fact, he seems to blur the distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/191 "2014-08-01T23:56:03Z")
For the record, some people are idiots. And Yochanan Gordon isn’t an Israeli and he’s not a writer. He’s a New Yorker who’s a sales manager for his father’s newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/192 "2014-08-02T00:11:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Israeli writer Yochanan Gordon:](http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-strip-palestinian-genocide-permissible-claims-israeli-writer-1459390) [“When Genocide Is Permissible.”](https://archive.today/RPf3M) Posted on the _Times of Israel_ website, which shortly took it down, but you can still read the article at the latter link. It’s not clear whether he’s advocating genocide on all Palestinians or all Gazans or just members of Hamas – in fact, he seems to blur the distinction. OMG! Someone put up a blog post that was extremely nasty! Unless this guy is a high level member of the a Israeli government I don’t see the point of this post. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/193 "2014-08-02T00:25:41Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I’m not from the UK so I won’t comment on that. > > As I Kiwi however I will say that the level of “Church” that I see in day to day life on these boards, and in politics is quite astonishing to me. And I rather suspect that your own beliefs are colouring what you see somewhat. > > Just as an example - I am currently 40, I couldn’t tell you the religion of any of New Zealand’s prime ministers since I started voting. Likewise - the only “religion” I can ever recall in any election campaign is the one party that stood specifically as a Christian Party (for example - I remember the controversy around what church who attends and who the reverend was in past American campaigns) Certainly, the U.S. displays more overtly religious feuds than most other countries. 😉 However, **Pjen** used the fact that he did not know the religion of his associates as an example of how distant Britain is from being “religious.” I simply countered that his experience exactly mimics my own. So where is his point? Similarly, you are now trying to make an issue of your ignorance of the religions of your PMs. So what? I know JFK was Catholic and I think Nixon was raised Quaker, (a point I know only because of the irony of a Quaker presiding over the Vietnam War). I would have known Romney was Mormon because of the irony of far Right religious leaders attacking him for that, but I have no idea of the denominations any other presidents. Rather than my vision being filtered by the religion surrounding me, I suspect that you are confusing the activities of a relatively small number of people who attempt to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of society, (leading to the discussions on this board), with the actual day-to-day religious awareness of the vast majority of Americans. It is, indeed, possible for religious groups to rally their membership to promote or (more typically) attack specific issues. I would never claim that the U.S. has achieved some sort of secular steady state. However, the perception of religion permeating daily life, like the other foreign perception that there are people having open gunfights on every street in the country and where no one is safe in his or her home, is a distorted reality based on selective news reports that does not actually reflect the daily life of the overwhelming majority of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/194 "2014-08-02T02:16:51Z")
And let’s look at other prominent pols: Nancy Pelosi: Assume she’s Catholic, but only because Italian Last Name = Catholic (usually). Harry Reid: Mormon, but only because Mormon = Exotic for much of the US John Boehner: No idea. German last name, but from the south, so I would guess Lutheran or Baptist. But no idea. Mitch McConell: No idea. Scottish (?) last name, so maybe Presbytarian? No idea. John Kerry: Catholic, but only because there was a big hop-hah about him supporting abortion rights. Biden: No idea. Hillary Clinton: No idea. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/195 "2014-08-02T02:36:36Z")
Biden’s a Catholic, and I’m pretty sure that Hillary is a Methodist. But there does seem to be a sort of generic Episcopresbyluthamethobaptist religion out there, sort of a generic American Protestantism that tends to just prevail, where so long as a candidate or somebody doesn’t make a big deal out it, it’s just generally not thought about, ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/196 "2014-08-02T04:01:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And let’s look at other prominent pols: > > Nancy Pelosi: Assume she’s Catholic, but only because Italian Last Name = Catholic (usually). > > Harry Reid: Mormon, but only because Mormon = Exotic for much of the US > > John Boehner: No idea. German last name, but from the south, so I would guess Lutheran or Baptist. But no idea. > > Mitch McConell: No idea. Scottish (?) last name, so maybe Presbytarian? No idea. > > John Kerry: Catholic, but only because there was a big hop-hah about him supporting abortion rights. > > Biden: No idea. > > Hillary Clinton: No idea. There aren’t a lot of Lutherans in the south- Lutherans are centred in the upper Midwest and Great Plains states ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/197 "2014-08-02T04:07:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > John Boehner: No idea. German last name, but from the south, so I would guess Lutheran or Baptist. But no idea. Also, I missed this. How is John Boehner from “the south”? He was born just outside Cincinnati, and lived his entire life in the Cincinnati metro area. Admittedly, it’s Southern Ohio, but he’s a Yankee. And he’s Catholic. McConnell is the Baptist. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/198 "2014-08-02T14:28:41Z")
Hillary is a Methodist- I was strapped for reading material on a bus one time and had to peruse her horrendously awful autobiography, in which she talks a lot about her church. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/199 "2014-08-02T14:46:48Z")
Oo! I found a Brit who [Speaks The Truth](http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/01/im_british_and_piers_morgan_is_damn_wrong.html) about gun control! He’s an outlier, so he must be right. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/200 "2014-08-02T15:18:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Also, I missed this. How is John Boehner from “the south”? He was born just outside Cincinnati, and lived his entire life in the Cincinnati metro area. Admittedly, it’s Southern Ohio, but he’s a Yankee. And he’s Catholic. McConnell is the Baptist. My bad. I assumed “Republican Leadership” = “From the South”. Or, maybe it was just the tan. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030.md?page=11)