# A Prominent British Jew speaks the truth about Israel and Palestine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030 "2014-07-25T15:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/21 "2014-07-25T18:42:09Z")
The good guys are us and the bad guys are them. Simples. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/22 "2014-07-25T18:44:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Would Israel’s image in the international community be enhanced if it decided to simply absorb suicide bombings and rocket attacks for a few months, without retaliating? I ask this as a half sarcastic but also half serious question. The United Kingdom underwent over thirtyyears of bombings and assasinations from the IRA without feeling the need to shell Catholic Belfast or invade the Irish republic. Our behaviour was less than perfect, certainly, and we are admitting that slowly, but we did avoid the mass killings being perpetrated by modern military hardware on domestic areas. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/23 "2014-07-25T18:45:32Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > There should really be a named mental illness for the people who can’t tell who the good guys are in this conflict. There should be a category for people who think that either side is right. There are no good guys, just pig headed and stupid politicians on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/24 "2014-07-25T18:48:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Except they ignore the complicated history of the occupation and annexation of Arab lands over three generations. > > All things considered, Israel has gone out of its way to terrorise, dominate and punish its Arab neighbours and its responses are rarely in anyway proportionate. Yeah, and your little spin here doesn’t ignore anything, right? 😛 What a load of horseshit…‘gone out of its way to terrorise, dominate and punish its Arab neighbours’?? Seriously? And, of course, your narrative here IS, contrary to your assertions, the same spin that a lot of Europeans put on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/25 "2014-07-25T18:55:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, and your little spin here doesn’t ignore anything, right? 😛 What a load of horseshit…‘gone out of its way to terrorise, dominate and punish its Arab neighbours’?? Seriously? And, of course, your narrative here IS, contrary to your assertions, the same spin that a lot of Europeans put on this issue. Given the current state of the West Bank and Gaza, the theft of their lands, the new settlements of Arab territory, the restrictions on commerce and so on, do you really believe that the Palestinians have no just grievances? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/26 "2014-07-25T18:56:46Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, and your little spin here doesn’t ignore anything, right? 😛 What a load of horseshit…‘gone out of its way to terrorise, dominate and punish its Arab neighbours’?? Seriously? And, of course, your narrative here IS, contrary to your assertions, the same spin that a lot of Europeans put on this issue. Also note that just above I make my opinion clear that both sides are in error. Just that criticising one side seems to be anathema and criticising the other side is fair! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/27 "2014-07-25T18:58:13Z")
It’s unclear to me what launching rockets at Israel is supposed to do. They can get a small amount of propaganda value out of Israel counter-attacks, but to what end? It’s not like anyone is going to intercede on their behalf. Maybe if they got their hands on some nukes they’d have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/28 "2014-07-25T19:04:06Z")
One other thing: if the current Israelis are the equivalent of the Nazis, why are there any Palestinians left alive for them to terrorize? The Israelis are constatntly being accused of genocide. All I can say is, if they ARE trying to wipe out the Arabs, they’re doing a lousy job of it! When’s the last time another ethnic group targeted for genocide had a population INCREASE??? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/29 "2014-07-25T19:05:35Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > It’s unclear to me what launching rockets at Israel is supposed to do. They can get a small amount of propaganda value out of Israel counter-attacks, but to what end? It’s not like anyone is going to intercede on their behalf. Maybe if they got their hands on some nukes they’d have a chance. I don’t understand why the Jews in Ghettos, Work Camps and Death Camps continued their resistance after all “It’s not like anyone is going to intercede on their behalf.” If I was their advisor I would suggest setting up methods to kidnap Israeli soldiers or citizens seeing as Israel seems to value an Israeli’s life at about 1000 Palestinian ones- going my the recent death toll and previous prisoner exchanges. I am really quite surprised that they have not tried this technique outside the Middle East. It is just using asymmetric warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/30 "2014-07-25T19:06:42Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > One other thing: if the current Israelis are the equivalent of the Nazis, why are there any Palestinians left alive for them to terrorize? > > The Israelis are constatntly being accused of genocide. All I can say is, if they ARE trying to wipe out the Arabs, they’re doing a lousy job of it! > > When’s the last time another ethnic group targeted for genocide had a population INCREASE??? No one has mentioned genocide as this is not genocide. It is however state terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/31 "2014-07-25T19:14:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It has currently gone viral in the UK following the problem in Gaza. Really? I’m in the UK and I’ve not spotted it elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/32 "2014-07-25T19:23:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Except they ignore the complicated history of the occupation and annexation of Arab lands over three generations. > > All things considered, Israel has gone out of its way to terrorise, dominate and punish its Arab neighbours and its responses are rarely in anyway proportionate. They are certainly [domineering.](http://www.protestwarrior.com/new_signs.php?sign=22) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/33 "2014-07-25T19:25:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Assume not everybody can play a vid with sound and tell us what he said. Assume that not everybody understant spoken English well and tell us what he said. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/34 "2014-07-25T20:03:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is certainly not. We may not be as one sided as the US press and population, but it is still difficult to criticise Israel without considerable abuse and accusations of anti-Semitism. Hmm… If you’re going to make such an asinine claim then perhaps you can back it up. If I publicly proclaimed “I don’t like Netanyahu’s handling of the situation and that he should withdraw troops from Gaza” are you saying I’d get bashed as being an anti-Semite. Also, how can it be that tough to criticize Israel when while it’s hardly Jordan, the UK clearly has issues with anti-Semitism when roughly 50% of all British citizens think British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK? Or do you think it’s not anti-Semitic to claim that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/35 "2014-07-25T20:06:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Hmm… If you’re going to make such an asinine claim then perhaps you can back it up. > > If I publicly proclaimed “I don’t like Netanyahu’s handling of the situation and that he should withdraw troops from Gaza” are you saying I’d get bashed as being an anti-Semite. > > Also, how can it be that tough to criticize Israel when while it’s hardly Jordan, the UK clearly has issues with anti-Semitism when roughly 50% of all British citizens think British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK? > > Or do you think it’s not anti-Semitic to claim that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK? Yes to point one. MPs who say that they can understand why Palestinians launch missiles are forced to withdraw- happened this week. Cite for British attitude to Jews please. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/36 "2014-07-25T20:07:21Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? I’m in the UK and I’ve not spotted it elsewhere. Try Facebook. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/37 "2014-07-25T20:29:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Assume not everybody can play a vid with sound and tell us what he said. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Assume that not everybody understant spoken English well and tell us what he said. **Pjen** , not everyone can access youtube will you please tell us what is in the video. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/38 "2014-07-25T20:42:45Z")
The transcript of the speech is right there on the OP’s linked page. I will quote it here for anybody who for some reason can’t access that page: > [@](#): > > Uploaded on Jan 21, 2009 > > British Jewish Zionist MP Gerald Kaufman, in a speech given to the House of Commons, and after qualifying his Jewish Zionist credentials, equates the actions and rhetoric of the Israeli state and its State actors with the actions and rhetoric of the Nazis. > > Full transcript of Gerald Kaufman’s speech: > > Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine. > > I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me. > > I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence. > > My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. > > My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count. > > On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that 500 of them were militants. > > That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants. > > The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livnis father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews. > > Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatahs previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafats death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed. > > The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said: You make peace by talking to your enemies. > > However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel. > > It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/39 "2014-07-25T20:45:55Z")
My righteous heart is gladdened. Let’s keep him in a box so we can remember later what European Jews were. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/40 "2014-07-25T20:50:23Z")
IOW **Captain Amazing** ’s _précis_ was correct. Unsurprising. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030.md?page=3)