# A Prominent British Jew speaks the truth about Israel and Palestine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030 "2014-07-25T15:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/41 "2014-07-25T21:33:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Given the current state of the West Bank and Gaza, the theft of their lands, the new settlements of Arab territory, the restrictions on commerce and so on, do you really believe that the Palestinians have no just grievances? Certainly I think they have some justification for their grievances. But that’s not what you were saying there, was it? And I’d feel a bit more sympathetic to them, at this late date, if they (or at least their more idiotic and militant brethren and sistren) weren’t the ones pushing the violence and poking the Israelis in the snout with the expectation and even anticipation of the Israelis lashing back and killing innocent civilians. > [@](#): > > Also note that just above I make my opinion clear that both sides are in error. Just that criticising one side seems to be anathema and criticising the other side is fair! You did not make that clear…you basically stated that Israel has “gone out of its way to terrorise, dominate and punish its Arab neighbours and its responses are rarely in anyway proportionate”…which, as I noted, is a highly spun version of reality that focuses exclusively on Israel. Where was your balance there…must have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/42 "2014-07-25T21:39:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8) > > A brave and wise man. > > Wait for the Israeli embassy to denigrate him in the media. Next time, post a synopsis of the linked site along with your own views. This is “Debates,” not Facebook. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/43 "2014-07-25T21:47:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Try Facebook. But Facebook tends to be an echo chamber. More often than not people tend to associate with / befriend those who have similar viewpoints. I’m sure I’ve seen many things that “have gone viral” that the majority of you are unaware even exist, and vice-versa. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/44 "2014-07-25T23:12:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s still easier than criticizing the Palestinians. Seems pretty easy around here. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/45 "2014-07-25T23:14:06Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > There should really be a named mental illness for the people who can’t tell who the good guys are in this conflict. What good guys? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/46 "2014-07-25T23:19:57Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > One other thing: if the current Israelis are the equivalent of the Nazis, why are there any Palestinians left alive for them to terrorize? > > The Israelis are constatntly being accused of genocide. All I can say is, if they ARE trying to wipe out the Arabs, they’re doing a lousy job of it! > > When’s the last time another ethnic group targeted for genocide had a population INCREASE??? I believe Israel’s jewish population has increased. So there’s that.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/47 "2014-07-25T23:21:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No one has mentioned genocide as this is not genocide. It is however state terrorism. Why not simply plain old colonialists style oppression? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/48 "2014-07-25T23:24:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Hmm… If you’re going to make such an asinine claim then perhaps you can back it up. > > If I publicly proclaimed “I don’t like Netanyahu’s handling of the situation and that he should withdraw troops from Gaza” are you saying I’d get bashed as being an anti-Semite. > > Also, how can it be that tough to criticize Israel when while it’s hardly Jordan, the UK clearly has issues with anti-Semitism when roughly 50% of all British citizens think British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK? > > Or do you think it’s not anti-Semitic to claim that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK? I don’t know about the UK but its a pretty sensitive topic here in the US. Make a statement criticizing Israel and you are suspected of anti-semitism, make a statement supporting israel and you are a zionist. I find it more comfortable talking about abortion with strangers than Israel. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/49 "2014-07-25T23:44:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What good guys? There are definitely good guys. The problem is how little political power they exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/50 "2014-07-25T23:48:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > They are certainly [domineering.](http://www.protestwarrior.com/new_signs.php?sign=22) Also–seriously, **Bricker**? That sign–and that site–are moronic. Are we supposed to conclude that, because there are so many other Muslim countries, it’s okay if Israel occupies just a few million people’s homeland? I mean, there’s legitimate debate about whether Israel’s actions are acceptable; I’m far from a rabid condemner of everything Israel does, and I can’t blame folks who want a strong reaction to the terrorist actions of Hamas. But that sign is just a terrible argument, even in jest. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/51 "2014-07-25T23:55:53Z")
What is it with some peoples’ Tourette’s-like obsession with the Middle East anyway (especially Western European leftists)? Not only is it utterly boring to listen to, I’m becoming convinced that their devotion of time and resources to this “issue” is quite literally contributing to a conflict where none needs to exist. If the Middle East was left alone to work through their own problems, I bet it would turn into a mostly-peaceful Cyprus clone in a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/52 "2014-07-26T00:11:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Next time, post a synopsis of the linked site along with your own views. This is “Debates,” not Facebook. > > [/Moderating] **Oakminster** likes this. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/53 "2014-07-26T05:16:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Yes to point one. MPs who say that they can understand why Palestinians launch missiles are forced to withdraw- happened this week. Ok, now you’re moving the goal posts. You initially claimed. > [@](#): > > **Pjen** > It is certainly not. We may not be as one sided as the US press and population, but it is still difficult to criticise Israel without considerable abuse and accusations of anti-Semitism. So I asked you if you were seriously arguing that anyone who said “I don’t like Netanyahu’s handling of the situation and that he should withdraw troops from Gaza”. You are now claiming that because MPs were forced to withdraw statements supporting Hamas launching rockets at Israel that it is difficult to criticize Israel without being condemned as an anti-Semite. criticizing Israel and supporting Hamas launching rockets at Israel are hardly in the same category. It would be like putting criticism of the British handling of Northern Ireland in the same category as supporting the IRA killing of “touts”. Sorry, but your claim was demonstrably stupid. Anyone remotely familiar with the British media can find many people who criticize Israel without somehow being destroyed. Now, if your position is that you can’t express support for Hamas launching rockets at Israel without being criticized that’s a completely different story. > [@](#): > > **Pjen** > Cite for British attitude to Jews please Certainly. Here’s a link to the ADL survey of Western European attitudes. (warning pdf)[http://archive.adl.org/anti\_semitism/adl\_anti-semitism\_presentation\_february\_2012.pdf](http://archive.adl.org/anti_semitism/adl_anti-semitism_presentation_february_2012.pdf) You’ll notice that the survey found 48% of all British citizens believe that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the UK. You’ll also notice that it found 20% believed that Jews had “too much power in the business world” and 22% believed Jews had “too much power in international financial markets”. As I said, the UK certainly isn’t Jordan, but it clearly has far more of a problem with anti-Semitism than most of us would like to see since those are fairly classic anti-Semitic attitudes. Or, and this isn’t meant as a challenge or an insult, but do you think it’s not anti-Semitic to claim that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/54 "2014-07-26T05:34:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, now you’re moving the goal posts. > > You initially claimed. > > > [@](#): > > > > **Pjen** > > It is certainly not. We may not be as one sided as the US press and population, but it is still difficult to criticise Israel without considerable abuse and accusations of anti-Semitism. > > So I asked you if you were seriously arguing that anyone who said “I don’t like Netanyahu’s handling of the situation and that he should withdraw troops from Gaza”. > > You are now claiming that because MPs were forced to withdraw statements supporting Hamas launching rockets at Israel that it is difficult to criticize Israel without being condemned as an anti-Semite. > > criticizing Israel and supporting Hamas launching rockets at Israel are hardly in the same category. > > It would be like putting criticism of the British handling of Northern Ireland in the same category as supporting the IRA killing of “touts”. > > Sorry, but your claim was demonstrably stupid. Anyone remotely familiar with the British media can find many people who criticize Israel without somehow being destroyed. > > Now, if your position is that you can’t express support for Hamas launching rockets at Israel without being criticized that’s a completely different story. > > Certainly. Here’s a link to the ADL survey of Western European attitudes. > > (warning pdf)[http://archive.adl.org/anti\_semitism/adl\_anti-semitism\_presentation\_february\_2012.pdf](http://archive.adl.org/anti_semitism/adl_anti-semitism_presentation_february_2012.pdf) > > You’ll notice that the survey found 48% of all British citizens believe that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the UK. > > You’ll also notice that it found 20% believed that Jews had “too much power in the business world” and 22% believed Jews had “too much power in international financial markets”. > > As I said, the UK certainly isn’t Jordan, but it clearly has far more of a problem with anti-Semitism than most of us would like to see since those are fairly classic anti-Semitic attitudes. > > Or, and this isn’t meant as a challenge or an insult, but do you think it’s not anti-Semitic to claim that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK. First I note that the funder for that is not independent. Secondly I note that they have used a sub-prime method- usually 1000 people are required for confidence for political polls. Thirdly I note that the Brits are among the least biased. I would like to see a similar poll about Islam in the UK. There is certainly a high level of feeling that many maintain an allegiance to their mother or grandmother country, that the have increasing influence in finance and the professions, and they talk too much about the historical and current suppression of Islam. Perhaps what we are seeing is a general trend that sees outsiders who maintain their cultural differences as somewhat suspect, especially if they are doing well financially and socially! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/55 "2014-07-26T05:45:08Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > First I note that the funder for that is not independent. Secondly I note that they have used a sub-prime method- usually 1000 people are required for confidence for political polls. With 500 people, you have a confidence interval of 4.38 at a confidence level of 95%. So, that means you can say with 95% certainty that between 44 and 52% of Britons believed that British Jews were more loyal to Israel than the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/56 "2014-07-26T06:26:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would like to see a similar poll about Islam in the UK. There is certainly a high level of feeling that many maintain an allegiance to their mother or grandmother country, that the have increasing influence in finance and the professions, and they talk too much about the historical and current suppression of Islam. I’m not sure your point. I have little doubt that anti-Muslim bigotry is far bigger problem in the UK than is anti-Semitism. I’m a Muslim who’s been there and while it’s certainly preferable to Israel, it is problem and having been to both the US and the UK I’d say the UK has it worse. Certainly, in the US I never experienced anything remotely like these poor Muslims did. Sure the US has it’s supply of anti-Muslim bigots but the idea of a mob of white trash bigots breaking into a KFC restaurant in Brooklyn and terrorizing the people there. Utterly ridiculous. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5rHx9iKPQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5rHx9iKPQ) Thankfully, as the UK continues to be diversified and improved by immigration, the UK will learn to welcome and adapt to the immigrants the way the US and become a more civilized country. That said, I’m still a fan of the UK and they’re vastly better when it comes to immigrants than most European countries though they really should take lessons from both the Americans and the Canadians. > [@](#): > > **Pjen** > Perhaps what we are seeing is a general trend that sees outsiders who maintain their cultural differences as somewhat suspect, especially if they are doing well financially and socially! Hmm… that’s dangerously close to apologizing for anti-Semitism. Exactly how do British Jews “maintain their cultural differences” in ways that say British Catholics don’t. That said, you may be touching on a point. One of the ways that the UK is stuck in the past is that it doesn’t have separation of Church and State so many British citizens clearly see non-Christians as somehow alien in ways that civilized countries like the US which maintain a strict separation of Church and State don’t. Hopefully one day the UK will join the 21st Century and adopt such principals and become a genuinely secular country. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/57 "2014-07-26T06:35:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Hmm… that’s dangerously close to apologizing for anti-Semitism. Exactly how do British Jews “maintain their cultural differences” in ways that say British Catholics don’t. > > That said, you may be touching on a point. One of the ways that the UK is stuck in the past is that it doesn’t have separation of Church and State so many British citizens clearly see non-Christians as somehow alien in ways that civilized countries like the US which maintain a strict separation of Church and State don’t. > > Hopefully one day the UK will join the 21st Century and adopt such principals and become a genuinely secular country. Not at all- bigotry against Roman Catholics is a problem in the UK, especially in Scotland and Northern Ireland. And for the same reasons as against Jews and People of Islam- clannishness and difference- a universal human reaction. Very few people in Britain see themselves as active Christians- far fewer than in the USA for sure. Establishment means little at ground level. The UK is a far more secular country than the US where to admit to being agnostic, let alone atheist, is to invite ridicule and anger outside the more civilised cities. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/58 "2014-07-26T07:14:33Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The UK is a far more secular country than the US where to admit to being agnostic, let alone atheist, is to invite ridicule and anger outside the more civilised cities. Really. I suspect most Muslims and Jews would piss themselves laughing at such a statement. Certainly most Muslims and Jews in the US are glad they live in a civilized, modern country which believes in the separation of Church and State then one that doesn’t, though I’ll confess Canada is also not a secular country yet has about the same track record as the US when it comes to integrating minorities and is also vastly superior to the British in that regard. So then why does there seem to be more anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bigotry in the UK than the US? I also noticed you decided to ignore my question so I’ll ask it again. Since you seem so concerned about “clannishness”\* and seem to argue that it’s perfectly fine to distrust and dislike those who hold onto “their cultural differences”, A)Please explain how British Jews are culturally different from other British citizens in ways that American Jews are not culturally different from American citizens. B)Don’t you agree that people who insist that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK are expressing anti-Semitic beliefs. C)You tried earlier to suggest that anti-Semitic sentiments about Jews shouldn’t be seen that badly because it was no different than suggesting that Muslim immigrants were more loyal to the countries they immigrated from. That strikes me as remarkably stupid since few British Jews are Israeli immigrants. Is your position that it makes sense to suspect that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK? \*. One of my favorite codewords for Jews. Congrats for using it. And no, I don’t think you’re being anti-Semitic, I just think it’s one of those cool phrase to use and I’m sure you’re aware of the history of the term. It’s right up there with “crafty” and all the other phrases used to express snobbish anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/59 "2014-07-26T08:56:19Z")
Of course both the Israelis and the Palestinians are semitic peoples, so anti-semitism is an inaccurate label in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030/60 "2014-07-26T09:02:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The UK is a far more secular country than the **US where to admit to being agnostic, let alone atheist, is to invite ridicule and anger outside the more civilised cities.** Have you ever been to the US? Or are you making this claim from 4,242 miles away? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-prominent-british-jew-speaks-the-truth-about-israel-and-palestine/694030.md?page=4)